[spoilers] Harry and Ruth Strike Back

[A Cousin]

(30-09-2010 03:01 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  With Ruth, I am totally confused and having real difficulty in reading her mind and interpreting any of her actions.

I wonder if that is somewhat intentional? I wonder if the writers are trying to keep us guessing about her? You know, the whole "who to trust and who not to trust" theme?

At the moment, I can see both of their POVs: flawed, wounded and "limited" as they are. I feel sorry for her and pain for him. They are peas in pod, yet they cannot seem to find their common ground. The fascinating tragedy is that they are so alike in so many ways. They are both naturally intelligent, intuitive and compassionate people, and dedicated workers. She's shut down in survival mode; he's reaching out and trying to prove to himself that he hasn't lost his humanity. The crux of drama is conflict. It doesn't get much better than this!

[JHyde]

I've been arguing for Ruth, but I really am feeling for both of them. There's no winner or better person, it's just really sad.

[Silktie]

Heh, I'm self-aware enough to admit that I'll ALWAYS be on Harry's side, even when he's clearly in the wrong.

Seriously, though, I have some sympathy with Ruth here. I do think she has not forgiven herself for George's death, and for the fact that she never told him the truth about who she really was. I think when she says to Harry they've forfeited the chance to be a normal, happy couple, she mostly means she herself does not deserve that after what happened to George. And from that angle I can understand where she's coming from. Remember, in Spooks time it's probably less than a year that's passed since the events of 8.1.

My main worry in this whole thing, though, is that the writers will write themselves into a corner with Ruth. I adore the character, quite apart from the HR thing, as a character in her own right. I don't want them to make her look wishy-washy and like she's leading Harry on, then rejecting him, which is kind of what they did here. Remember she was the one making all the moves in the latter half of season 8. And if they still intend to bring them together in the end, how will they now do it without making Ruth look like she can't make up her mind? I think the character deserves better than that.

[JHyde]

That's exactly why I've been arguing along the lines I have. I really hate this idea that Ruth is just in the show to 'service' Harry, for lack of a better term.

She is brave and good and kind and I think she said 'no' to Harry mostly because of her own rubbish. Which is better than jumping in damaged. But that's me.

It's teetering on an edge. I'm really hoping it comes down on the right side.

[HellsBells]

I thought when Harry leaned into Ruth's ear in 9.1 he was going to tell her he loved her, not "marry me". Has he ever admitted to loving her ? I don't blame her for saying no, Harry almost sounded desperate not to be lonely, rather than he wanted Ruth because he loved her.

[A Cousin]

(01-10-2010 08:32 AM)Silktie Wrote:  Heh, I'm self-aware enough to admit that I'll ALWAYS be on Harry's side, even when he's clearly in the wrong.

My main worry in this whole thing, though, is that the writers will write themselves into a corner with Ruth. I adore the character, quite apart from the HR thing, as a character in her own right.

With all due respect and too many smiley emoticoms (), I don't know why there has to be "sides" at all.

However, I see exactly what you are saying about the writers running the risk of writing Ruth into a unsympathetic corner. It would seem that what they have written thus far for her is not representing her POV in a way that is understandable to all. But, as I have mentioned before, I wonder if that is somewhat intentional? I wonder if they are trying to keep us off balance with her? Not that she is the mole or a traitor or whatever, just that she *could* be.

(01-10-2010 09:39 AM)JHyde Wrote:  She is brave and good and kind and I think she said 'no' to Harry mostly because of her own rubbish. Which is better than jumping in damaged. But that's me.

Or taking on the responsibility of at least partially shouldering someone else's guilt in addition to your own considerable amount of guilt. One might argue that Harry's guilt is not her responsibility but relationships don't work in a personal vacuum. How can they support each other if they can barely support themselves?

I too want her to have her own character arc, with or without Harry. It would be a waste of a brilliant character and a brilliant actor. I am looking forward to 9.4. I think she is going to get some screen time as Ruth and not as the character who broke Harry's heart.

[Tea Lady]

(01-10-2010 01:19 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  I thought when Harry leaned into Ruth's ear in 9.1 he was going to tell her he loved her, not "marry me". Has he ever admitted to loving her ? I don't blame her for saying no, Harry almost sounded desperate not to be lonely, rather than he wanted Ruth because he loved her.

Perhaps Harry is taking the whole "leave it as something never said" a bit too far. Maybe he is scared of telling her, because she stopped him before. I can understand why the whole marriage thing came out of his mouth first though, to help protect Ruth, to stop people gossiping. I think he really thought, that was what Ruth wanted. "A turn around the grounds," with an old fashioned marriage proposal, before sex and cohabitation. He should have just popped the word "love" in there somewhere.

It is true that so far, we have not really had things from Ruth's POV. I am not against Ruth, just struggling to understand her reasons. I have been tempted all day to read up on 9.4. My resistance is crumbling on this cold, wet, horrible day.

[Naivety]

This is just some disjointed comments that come to mind when reading the above:

I am sure we are heading for a show down soon. Harry is losing his patience, and you can't blame him, although nothing is going to change his feelings for her.

I don't think Ruth has quite forgiven Harry for what happened in 8.1 and I think that is what she is referring to when she rejects his proposal.

Thinking about the proposal, if someone you care about suddenly went from giving you the cold shoulder on the roof top when he said 'It's just the wind, Ruth' to 'Marry me' within what must be less than a fortnight, I think you would question his motives. I mean, what ever happened to 'I love you' and cosy nights in and going for a drink or a meal. They've only had one date!

The proposal wasn't worded very elegantly, it sounded as though loneliness was the motive, not love. Ruth has said before how she values elegance. I wish we could have had a follow up conversation about her comments at the end of 9.1, or if Harry had said more instead of changing the subject.

I'm really hoping for more than one H/R scene in 9.3!

[arctic]

It seems to me that Ruth's reaction to Harry's proposal was cruel and, if Harry were a real person, I don't think he'd ever forgive her or trust her again. I also think he would really have resigned from the service and disappeared. I'm afraid they're losing any reality in these two characters.

I hope they have a good plan to resolve this situation.

[Beatriz]

wow I wouldn't go as far as cruel. I agree with Naivety here, Harry sounded like he didn't want to be lonely, I know he didn't want to sound like that, but he was affected and that was the way words went out of his mouth; I'm sure that if he had thought over the words wouldn't have been those.
I don't think this is a question of trust, it is a question of accepting their own feelings and saying them out loud. I agree with those of you that the word love should be amoung their words.

Ruth isn't at her best either, she still feels guilty, I don't think she blames Harry, but both of them were involved in George death and that disturbs her. I think she's afraid to dive into it.

I find it real, have you ever been sure about something and then regret it, and gone back and forth?
They both are suffering, different motives, it's easy seeing a relationship from the outside but it's hard to be in their shoes. I feel for them both. (ok now it is when I have to remind myself they aren't real )