oh but he could be so DEEP undercover that even the Russians (but for 2,5 people in Moscow) don't know he's theirs.
Still, I refuse to think it'd be that easy.. if they do make him a Russian super mole, they'd have two twist and re-write quite a few story lines...not puttin it past them but I'd be disappointed if he were "only" a Russian spy/traitor.
...and who says the ultimate betrayal is committed by Lucas?!?!

(18-07-2010 08:44 PM)TygerBright Wrote:  oh but he could be so DEEP undercover that even the Russians (but for 2,5 people in Moscow) don't know he's theirs.
Still, I refuse to think it'd be that easy.. if they do make him a Russian super mole, they'd have two twist and re-write quite a few story lines...not puttin it past them but I'd be disappointed if he were "only" a Russian spy/traitor.
...and who says the ultimate betrayal is committed by Lucas?!?!

I agree, if they do choose to make Lucas a double agent for Russia, it would really ruin the character development that Lucas has had over the last two series. We saw him as a man who is damaged and skirts the lines, but still in the end loyal to MI5 and Harry. It makes him admirable and a character that people can love. But if they make him a double agent who's been playing MI5 all along, all he's done and the things he has said, it will all be nothing because he's just been playing everyone. Then the care that he's shown to Ros, Jo, Ben, Tariq and Ruth will be simply meaningless and I really hate for all that to go to waste as simply Lucas pretending, because those moments alone when no one's watching, I just can't believe it's all for pretend.

I did have some trouble with Lucas going back to Moscow "so soon" (time in Spooks continuum=what?) after his release. I can't imagine how there wasn't a large degree of psychological trauma for Lucas attached to that trip. Of all the people to send, Harry sent Lucas? I wondered what was the basis for Harry's complete trust in Lucas to go back to Moscow, carry out his mission and return. I had trouble understanding how Lucas could get on the plane to Moscow which being heavily sedated enough to avoid screaming, "Get me the H*ll off this plane!!". My point in bringing this up is that I wonder how this factors in to the spy/double spy/triple spy etc idea.......

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(18-07-2010 08:49 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(18-07-2010 08:44 PM)TygerBright Wrote:  oh but he could be so DEEP undercover that even the Russians (but for 2,5 people in Moscow) don't know he's theirs.
Still, I refuse to think it'd be that easy.. if they do make him a Russian super mole, they'd have two twist and re-write quite a few story lines...not puttin it past them but I'd be disappointed if he were "only" a Russian spy/traitor.
...and who says the ultimate betrayal is committed by Lucas?!?!

I agree, if they do choose to make Lucas a double agent for Russia, it would really ruin the character development that Lucas has had over the last two series. We saw him as a man who is damaged and skirts the lines, but still in the end loyal to MI5 and Harry. It makes him admirable and a character that people can love. But if they make him a double agent who's been playing MI5 all along, all he's done and the things he has said, it will all be nothing because he's just been playing everyone. Then the care that he's shown to Ros, Jo, Ben, Tariq and Ruth will be simply meaningless and I really hate for all that to go to waste as simply Lucas pretending, because those moments alone when no one's watching, I just can't believe it's all for pretend.

Of course the ability to pretend to that level and degree would also be what makes him a super mole and, dare I say it, attracted to the darkness that was Sarah in the first place. A spy without a soul?

(18-07-2010 08:49 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  I agree, if they do choose to make Lucas a double agent for Russia, it would really ruin the character development that Lucas has had over the last two series. We saw him as a man who is damaged and skirts the lines, but still in the end loyal to MI5 and Harry. It makes him admirable and a character that people can love. But if they make him a double agent who's been playing MI5 all along, all he's done and the things he has said, it will all be nothing because he's just been playing everyone. Then the care that he's shown to Ros, Jo, Ben, Tariq and Ruth will be simply meaningless and I really hate for all that to go to waste as simply Lucas pretending, because those moments alone when no one's watching, I just can't believe it's all for pretend.

VERY GOOD point. It would only prove that he's an excellent actor (Lucas, that is.. and RA by extension ).. and it would ruin my picture of a tough but sweet, damaged, but not broken, man. Capable of murder and of compassion, and not of betrayal. Although I guess every person is at a certain point capable of it, just a matter of price and/or circumstances.
What would be the point in taking all that away just to shock and surprise us with a totally different person?! Whatever the big "WHAT?!?!?!" is RA hinted at, it'd better be good. If not as in "Lucas is good" then in "Lucas is bad but the script is good".
Still, it'd be a sucker punch for me if he turned out traitor. And a rotten person. Nah. Not gonna happen. *puts fingers back in ears and walks away, whistling loudly*

No way Lucas is without a soul.

(18-07-2010 08:54 PM)AnnMarie Wrote:  I did have some trouble with Lucas going back to Moscow "so soon" (time in Spooks continuum=what?) after his release. I can't imagine how there wasn't a large degree of psychological trauma for Lucas attached to that trip. Of all the people to send, Harry sent Lucas? I wondered what was the basis for Harry's complete trust in Lucas to go back to Moscow, carry out his mission and return. I had trouble understanding how Lucas could get on the plane to Moscow which being heavily sedated enough to avoid screaming, "Get me the H*ll off this plane!!". My point in bringing this up is that I wonder how this factors in to the spy/double spy/triple spy etc idea.......

I wondered about that too. I mean, sending a guy who was captured in Moscow and tortured back to the place where all the bad memories are sounds like a bad move to me. Lucas the whole time looked really tense, always looking over his shoulder, and he was sighing in relief when the mission was over. Clearly this was affecting him.

I don't think Harry necessarily fully trusted Lucas, but I do believe that Harry sent Lucas because Lucas was the one person on the team at that point who had any knowledge of what Sugarhorse was about or that it even existed. Remember that they had a big fight after Lucas found out Harry lied to him. So I think Harry counted on Lucas as his only chance to get the real mole. It was either trust Lucas (whom he probably will always care about even if not always trust), or let the mole get away.

(18-07-2010 08:54 PM)AnnMarie Wrote:  Of course the ability to pretend to that level and degree would also be what makes him a super mole and, dare I say it, attracted to the darkness that was Sarah in the first place. A spy without a soul?

It's possible, not that I want to believe Lucas to be a person like that.

(18-07-2010 08:59 PM)TygerBright Wrote:  VERY GOOD point. It would only prove that he's an excellent actor (Lucas, that is.. and RA by extension ).. and it would ruin my picture of a tough but sweet, damaged, but not broken, man. Capable of murder and of compassion, and not of betrayal. Although I guess every person is at a certain point capable of it, just a matter of price and/or circumstances.
What would be the point in taking all that away just to shock and surprise us with a totally different person?! Whatever the big "WHAT?!?!?!" is RA hinted at, it'd better be good. If not as in "Lucas is good" then in "Lucas is bad but the script is good".
Still, it'd be a sucker punch for me if he turned out traitor. And a rotten person. Nah. Not gonna happen. *puts fingers back in ears and walks away, whistling loudly*

Oh believe me my dear Tyger, it would be a sucker punch for me too! I always viewed Lucas as the tough guy with a gentle and caring side, and no matter how many times he disobeys orders, he will always come through for Harry and MI5.

I really really hope that Lucas will not be ruined like that!

(18-07-2010 09:38 PM)Maike Wrote:  No way Lucas is without a soul.

AGREED!

Ok. I have to agree with Maike and TygerBRight and BravoNine (aside to myself: I have to get a cool handle too), I just don't/ can't buy the spy without a soul concept myself. I felt his confrontation with Connie about what he endured for his country was too genuine and closely held to his heart especially in the face of her treason and betrayal for it not to be real.

I do think that Mr. A's "hints" have to be sanctioned by the show because he said them on several programs, both radio and tv as well as print. That's too much splash to be accidental as I am sure they would have nipped him in right away.

Also, what strength of character and heart Lucas has to have to return to Moscow despite what he endured and suffered in Russia to help his country and the service. I had forgotten that he knew about sugarhorse and had suffered for it. In a way, going there to deal with it may have seemed a catharsis for him. A chance for action after 8 years of powerlessness.

I see a series 7 and 8 video fest on the horizon to prep for 9. This is a great forum! I've been enjoying the discussions a great deal.

(19-07-2010 12:47 AM)AnnMarie Wrote:  Ok. I have to agree with Maike and TygerBRight and BravoNine (aside to myself: I have to get a cool handle too), I just don't/ can't buy the spy without a soul concept myself. I felt his confrontation with Connie about what he endured for his country was too genuine and closely held to his heart especially in the face of her treason and betrayal for it not to be real.

Exactly! What he said to Connie about the things he had suffered for his country seems way too real and true for him to be pretending. This is to me what is very much an integral part of Lucas's character, his loyalty to MI5 and Harry. That's central to who Lucas really is.

If they change that and make him the bad guy, what is really likable and admirable about Lucas will be ruined, his character will be ruined.

(19-07-2010 12:47 AM)AnnMarie Wrote:  I do think that Mr. A's "hints" have to be sanctioned by the show because he said them on several programs, both radio and tv as well as print. That's too much splash to be accidental as I am sure they would have nipped him in right away.

Yeah I quite agree! Surely if he was telling real big spoilers that no one should know, then they would have shut him up already!

(19-07-2010 12:47 AM)AnnMarie Wrote:  Also, what strength of character and heart Lucas has to have to return to Moscow despite what he endured and suffered in Russia to help his country and the service. I had forgotten that he knew about sugarhorse and had suffered for it. In a way, going there to deal with it may have seemed a catharsis for him. A chance for action after 8 years of powerlessness.

Lucas clearly had apprehensions about going there, he was always on edge when he was there. But the fact that he put his own sanity, mental health, and physical wellbeing on the line just to help Harry really says a lot about where Lucas's loyalty really lies.

(19-07-2010 12:47 AM)AnnMarie Wrote:  I see a series 7 and 8 video fest on the horizon to prep for 9. This is a great forum! I've been enjoying the discussions a great deal.

Oh yes! I am like on a Lucas video high! I am even planning to write a fanfic and make a video myself!

If we are going to have a "Lucas as a traitor" storyline - and I'm not convinced of this at all - I don't think it's going to be for Russia. It's just not logical for them to have this storyline only two seasons after we had the exact same thing with Connie. So I'm thinking he could have been involved in something shady before being recruited by MI5 - but something criminal rather than traitorous. This would explain the flashbacks they're filming. Perhaps someone from that past (the ex-girlfriend mentioned?) tries to blackmail him into doing something treacherous, perhaps on behalf of the Chinese.

(21-07-2010 03:32 PM)Silktie Wrote:  If we are going to have a "Lucas as a traitor" storyline - and I'm not convinced of this at all - I don't think it's going to be for Russia. It's just not logical for them to have this storyline only two seasons after we had the exact same thing with Connie. So I'm thinking he could have been involved in something shady before being recruited by MI5 - but something criminal rather than traitorous. This would explain the flashbacks they're filming. Perhaps someone from that past (the ex-girlfriend mentioned?) tries to blackmail him into doing something treacherous, perhaps on behalf of the Chinese.

I find your idea interesting and definitely more plausible than anything along the line of "Lucas as a Russian double agent".
But in my opinion there are two arguments against it:
1. Certainly anyone who is recruited to work for MI5 is thoroughly checked through. So they should find out if someone has a criminal background!
2. Lucas has been portrayed as someone with high moral standards. As far as I remember this was even mentioned in the commentary to 7.8. (but I have to admit I just read that somewhere, I have to go back and check the commentary myself). So in a way it would be contrary to his character to have been involved in anything shady.

He has proven his loyalty to MI5 and Harry on a number of occasions, so it's difficult to imagine anything that could turn him against them. Maybe if he found out that Harry/MI5 had done something terrible like selling him to the Russians or killing a member of his family (not my idea originally, again it's something I read somewhere) - this could lead to him fighting against MI5. But this would then make Harry the bad guy and I don't think that's very likely.

Still the question remains: why is MI5 apparently trying to kill Lucas?
Was he framed by someone in section D? Did someone frame Harry (in the sense of telling Lucas lies about him so that Lucas would then be out trying to kill Harry)?