I think your view of Lucas is somewhat blinkered, as if you won't/can't accept that he has an agenda. From his first episode we weren't sure where Lucas' loyalties lay, with us or the Russians. So I don't know where you've got this idea of him always being loyal to his country? We don't know what he told the Russians during those 8 years. We just don't.

It's completely conceivable that his character turn without reason, it's in the nature of his job. I think it's a little bit naive to think that he will always be this dutiful figure whose loyalty doesn't falter. He's already shown us his lack of loyalty to Maya, who knows who or what else he's run away from.

(25-10-2010 01:31 PM)Nitrus Wrote:  I think your view of Lucas is somewhat blinkered, as if you won't/can't accept that he has an agenda. From his first episode we weren't sure where Lucas' loyalties lay, with us or the Russians. So I don't know where you've got this idea of him always being loyal to his country? We don't know what he told the Russians during those 8 years. We just don't.

It's completely conceivable that his character turn without reason, it's in the nature of his job. I think it's a little bit naive to think that he will always be this dutiful figure whose loyalty doesn't falter. He's already shown us his lack of loyalty to Maya, who knows who or what else he's run away from.

I don't think my view is blinkered, I have seen enough evidence of Lucas's loyalty proven enough times for the last 2 series for me to trust him just as much as I trust Harry to be the rock and foundation of the team.

Yes Lucas has always been shady and toeing the line between right and wrong, but he always came through when Harry and the team needed him, so as far as I'm concerned, he IS loyal.

So unless I see a damn good reason why Vaughn and Maya have this effect on Lucas, I don't find it conceivable that suddenly he just became a different person because he saw a photograph. OR unless I see him telling the Russians all the secrets of MI5, I am not gonna believe that he betrayed his country to the Russians.

I believe in my view, you obviously have yours. They're simply different, doesn't make one view more right than the other.

(25-10-2010 01:48 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  I believe in my view, you obviously have yours. They're simply different, doesn't make one view more right than the other.

I'm not suggesting otherwise. It's just interesting to discuss it.

(25-10-2010 01:52 PM)Nitrus Wrote:  

(25-10-2010 01:48 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  I believe in my view, you obviously have yours. They're simply different, doesn't make one view more right than the other.

I'm not suggesting otherwise. It's just interesting to discuss it.

It is interesting to discuss it.

It's not that I can't or won't accept that Lucas has an agenda, of course he's always got an agenda, but my issue is the reason. If I don't accept it then it's because I'm not seeing a good reason for it. And right now, the writers aren't that busy serving up the big secrets and reasons that's got Lucas's so jumpy. So yes, I have a hard time believing that the Lucas I know for the last 2 series who never hesitate in risking his life to protect his team would turn on them.

If they make it a good reason, then I can accept any storyline they throw at me, whether I love Lucas or not. They just better find a damn good reason that can break through my walls of Lucas-loyalty.

(25-10-2010 12:39 PM)Nitrus Wrote:  Spooks needs people to turn bad and have mysterious backgrounds, it helps the show and provides a great story arc that lasts a whole series. The Lucas thing is perhaps the best example of this being done so far.

I quite agree and I am really enjoying the Lucas storyline. There are more twists and turns to come, I am sure. I never completely trusted Lucas and always thought of him as damaged by what happened to him in Russia. This perhaps explains why Harry has always seemed to have doubts about Lucas and where his loyalties lie. I am liking this story arc as we are all heavily invested in it, as opposed to the OTT Nightingale arc last season. It is believable IMO when you look back at the 3 series, and take everything into account, including Lucas' relationship and trust issues with SC.

(Oh dear, just realised I used my 2000th post to talk about Lucas and not Harry..Sorry my Harry...)

(25-10-2010 01:17 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(25-10-2010 12:39 PM)Nitrus Wrote:  I disagree, I think a lot of the opinions being expressed here are from RA fans right? That makes you slightly biased, perhaps you are angry about what's being done to RA rather than what's being done to Lucas?

I am not being angry about what's been done to RA. In fact, nothing's been done to RA that I see of. He seems happy.

If I am biased, then it's because I am a Lucas fan first and always. And I care deeply about what Lucas has to go through. And I think it's a little biased to just assume that fans here are angry simply because of RA.

If RA leaves, that's fine with me, it's the nature of this show, people leave and I understand, but how they choose to exit Lucas as a character means A LOT to me. Because frankly, I invested a LONG time into this character and I do not want to see him getting a silly exit that is going to ruin one of the best things about Lucas North, his sense of duty and loyalty.

(25-10-2010 12:39 PM)Nitrus Wrote:  Spooks needs people to turn bad and have mysterious backgrounds, it helps the show and provides a great story arc that lasts a whole series. The Lucas thing is perhaps the best example of this being done so far.

Not everyone has to turn bad and have mysterious backgrounds for a show to have a great arc for a character. Plenty of shows have great stories without it. Perhaps I would be more accepting of Lucas's "treachery" if I was given something to see just how amazing Maya is that would cause Lucas to turn or what Vaughn is holding over Lucas's head. Perhaps if I see a good reason, then I can accept why a man who never turned on his country through 8 years of torture throws it all away in a span of seconds.

And honestly, this constant barrage of questioning Lucas's loyalty is getting rather tiresome. Why can't we point the finger at someone else for a change? Why is that it has to be Lucas who is mysterious and bad?

I watched 2 series of Lucas North risking everything for Queen and Country and now I'm suppose to believe that he would turn on the team without a second thought? That's to me like saying Harry is evil and is heading a large conspiracy group to take down government.

If Harry became evil, would you be excited and thrilled about the storyline without constantly questioning why or how when you've seen Harry being so loyal and good?

(25-10-2010 12:39 PM)Nitrus Wrote:  Surely as RA fans you'd welcome this storyline as a chance for RA to show a different side to the character and show his talent?

I would welcome it if it makes sense to me, and there is no doubt of RA's great talents. But however, this story DOESN'T make sense to me other than making me think that Lucas has lost whatever shred that is left of his sanity and decided to become an idiot.

I can accept the storyline if they just give me reasons of why, but right now, all those reasons are not there because they are keeping everything so secret and guarded, so it frustrates me because I simply don't see why Lucas who has always been loyal would do this.

BravoNine, I agree with every single word you've said!
Lucas suddenly turning evil would be a complete contradiction to everything we had been told about him and I would never buy it. I would be so angry and disappointed if the writers really tried to give us such a silly, ridiculous story. And it has nothing to do with RA, because Lucas is the one I'm interested in and have fallen in live with.

(25-10-2010 02:52 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  I quite agree and I am really enjoying the Lucas storyline. There are more twists and turns to come, I am sure. I never completely trusted Lucas and always thought of him as damaged by what happened to him in Russia. This perhaps explains why Harry has always seemed to have doubts about Lucas and where his loyalties lie. I am liking this story arc as we are all heavily invested in it, as opposed to the OTT Nightingale arc last season. It is believable IMO when you look back at the 3 series, and take everything into account, including Lucas' relationship and trust issues with SC.

It's not that I don't enjoy Lucas's storyline, I always do. It's just this one is causing me to grow gray hairs, have heart-attacks, and run around crazy in my room!

I think Harry's heart trusts or at least yearns to trust Lucas, however, his head is telling him that it would be a fool for him to fully trust Lucas because of where he has been and who he has been with.

I definitely agree that this storyline is better than last year's Nightingale, at least this time there is heavy investment for the fans to tune in because we really don't know how Lucas's story will end.

Maybe we'll finally get a happy ending! That'll be a shock to everyone!!

(25-10-2010 02:52 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  (Oh dear, just realised I used my 2000th post to talk about Lucas and not Harry..Sorry my Harry...)

Great, now I know Harry's gonna shoot Lucas just for stealing his spot light!

Well said Bravo Nine For two series we have been told and shown on a huge number of levels that Lucas is loyal above everything there was the whole issue when he came back and prooving his loyality. The way he forced himself to remember the waterboarding rushing to Russia all at Harry's bidding. The speeches to Connie and Elizaveta. The way he spoke to Sarah in that hospital ward. Even to the young boy in episode 7 of series eight when he says he is the man he has to be to get the job done. All point to a man who would never betray anybody. Now we are ask to accept a completely different character but because we question it we must be confusing RA with Lucas

Well of course if you only highlight the times he's shown some loyalty he comes off as very very loyal. You can't even put across a reasoned argument for his loyalty because you refuse to see both sides of the argument. Your view of Lucas is very clouded and you play him up to be this almost god-like figure when in truth he is just as flawed as everyone else.

(25-10-2010 03:49 PM)Nitrus Wrote:  Well of course if you only highlight the times he's shown some loyalty he comes off as very very loyal. You can't even put across a reasoned argument for his loyalty because you refuse to see both sides of the argument. Your view of Lucas is very clouded and you play him up to be this almost god-like figure when in truth he is just as flawed as everyone else.

I like' em flawed, too. The beauty of this show is that no one character is all good or all bad.

I initially came over here to try an understand Lucas better, because he has been an enigma and unpredictable for me from the beginning. I agree that he is damaged goods and would like to add that he has always had tendencies to take matters into his own hands and go rogue.

I am enjoying the arc because, quite frankly, I am at a complete loss as to where it is all going. And it has been excruciating! I am trying very hard to not put the horse before the cart and just let it play out. More often than not, the writers come through.