(03-11-2010 02:51 PM)Who Needs Bond Wrote:  

(03-11-2010 02:44 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  That is exactly what I was thinking Watchstrap !! As Lucas steps out of the shower.......

Now you're just wishing for a Lucas shower scene aren't you..!!

Thanks for the laugh - I could do with one

:woop:Okay. Possibly no somatic genetic manipulation, (which, isn't in the realm of sci-fi, anymore btw), of John/Lucas. However programming or perhaps "brainwashing" Lucas/John could be possible for whatever reason's. Fun to speculate, aye?

I like the coma thought, too, now, not Ros being in a coma, but actually Lucas... remember in Series 8, Ep 8 finale, when we see him get blasted sky high from the percussion of the explosion in the hotel? His body left the ground! Maybe when he landed he suffered a massive concussion, went into a coma and has been lying there dreaming the whole series, thus far!

I'm old enough to remember Bobby Ewing, shower, et al, but didn't watch one episode of Dallas. That scene was so controversial it was discussed on talk shows, etc., where I heard about it. Now someone getting out of or into a shower, is just someone taking and finishing a shower, with or without a partner. But then? OMG! Big news... at least in the U.S.

So... we have Lucas in a coma now... how's that for a straw?

(03-11-2010 02:38 PM)watchstrap Wrote:  A la Bobby Ewing? LOL. If you don't remember Dallas then you won't get this reference and won't be as ancient as me!

LOL! Never saw the show, it was sort of before my time, but I definitely get the reference! I did live in Dallas for a decade before recently going to LA for college....

(03-11-2010 03:58 PM)Caitlinhg Wrote:  :woop:Okay. Possibly no somatic genetic manipulation, (which, isn't in the realm of sci-fi, anymore btw), of John/Lucas. However programming or perhaps "brainwashing" Lucas/John could be possible for whatever reason's. Fun to speculate, aye?

I like the coma thought, too, now, not Ros being in a coma, but actually Lucas... remember in Series 8, Ep 8 finale, when we see him get blasted sky high from the percussion of the explosion in the hotel? His body left the ground! Maybe when he landed he suffered a massive concussion, went into a coma and has been lying there dreaming the whole series, thus far!

I'm old enough to remember Bobby Ewing, shower, et al, but didn't watch one episode of Dallas. That scene was so controversial it was discussed on talk shows, etc., where I heard about it. Now someone getting out of or into a shower, is just someone taking and finishing a shower, with or without a partner. But then? OMG! Big news... at least in the U.S.

So... we have Lucas in a coma now... how's that for a straw?

Great idea! So he's in a coma and wakes up shortly before the end of episode 8. And then of course he needs to take a shower - I think after all the frustrations we had to go through in the last weeks we definitely deserve a shower scene!
Oh, and by the way - I do remember Bobby Ewing.

(03-11-2010 11:54 AM)arwyn Wrote:  The more I go back and watch episodes of series 9, the more I see a manipulation/hypnotism on Lucas. Vaughn carefully sets a series of triggers and Maya is the reward.

- Fifteen years and you haven't changed.
- What's been like, being Lucas North?
- Good to see you John.
- Did you open the suitcase?
- The suitcase has photos and casino chips, a passport and a photo of Maya.
- Good boy John opened the suitcase -> treat/reward/fix is Maya.
- Maya keeps saying it's been 15 years, I don't know you. You want her, you want her to remember, you want to be the John she knew.
- Vaughn = Want her forever? Get Albany.
- Lucas/John gets Albany, it's a photo of an exploding British ship. Another trigger?
- Immediately afterward, Lucas runs to Maya, like a dog wanting his candy after he did a good did.
- Maya keeps insisting that it's been so long, she wants to be sure it's the John she knew.
- Vaughn says it's not the real Albany, get the real one, or Maya will know who you are (not her John, Lucas?). Like a drug addict, you want your fix and you'll stay John to get it.
- Vaughn then threatens to take away Maya. "You had nothing, I gave you her". Again, John is nothing without Maya, his fix.
- John goes to Malcolm for Albany, then immediately back for a Maya fix, but Vaughn tells him it's a fake. That sends him over the edge.
- Vaughn sets off the final trigger. Dakar and the ugly past.
- When Vaughn kidnaps Maya, that's it. John embraces his fix completely, the sleeper awakens. The killer is set.

Notice how all of Vaughn's words were like a mantra? Hypnotic, repeating. Even Maya has been doing the same, repeating that she doesn't know John, it's been 15 years, it's got to be forever. The sleeper was pulled out, fed orders and treats, got him addicted and finally totally commanding.

As I said, straws... maybe...

Very good summary.

I also want to add that Vaughn and Maya did have scenes alone and he did express jealousy at times. So they must have had something going.

I'm sure Vaughan was (is?) also in love with Maya.

And we definitely need a Lucas shower scene...Come on Kudos writers...one good thing before the finale...

(03-11-2010 11:54 AM)arwyn Wrote:  The more I go back and watch episodes of series 9, the more I see a manipulation/hypnotism on Lucas. Vaughn carefully sets a series of triggers and Maya is the reward.

- Fifteen years and you haven't changed.
- What's been like, being Lucas North?
- Good to see you John.
- Did you open the suitcase?
- The suitcase has photos and casino chips, a passport and a photo of Maya.
- Good boy John opened the suitcase -> treat/reward/fix is Maya.
- Maya keeps saying it's been 15 years, I don't know you. You want her, you want her to remember, you want to be the John she knew.
- Vaughn = Want her forever? Get Albany.
- Lucas/John gets Albany, it's a photo of an exploding British ship. Another trigger?
- Immediately afterward, Lucas runs to Maya, like a dog wanting his candy after he did a good did.
- Maya keeps insisting that it's been so long, she wants to be sure it's the John she knew.
- Vaughn says it's not the real Albany, get the real one, or Maya will know who you are (not her John, Lucas?). Like a drug addict, you want your fix and you'll stay John to get it.
- Vaughn then threatens to take away Maya. "You had nothing, I gave you her". Again, John is nothing without Maya, his fix.
- John goes to Malcolm for Albany, then immediately back for a Maya fix, but Vaughn tells him it's a fake. That sends him over the edge.
- Vaughn sets off the final trigger. Dakar and the ugly past.
- When Vaughn kidnaps Maya, that's it. John embraces his fix completely, the sleeper awakens. The killer is set.

Notice how all of Vaughn's words were like a mantra? Hypnotic, repeating. Even Maya has been doing the same, repeating that she doesn't know John, it's been 15 years, it's got to be forever. The sleeper was pulled out, fed orders and treats, got him addicted and finally totally commanding.

As I said, straws... maybe...

That was a really fantastic analysis Arwyn. I have been feeling for some time that Lucas has been under the 'influence' of Vaughn rather than just acting out of fear. His 'bad' reactions are always either prompted by messages from Vaughn, contact with Maya or the word 'Albany'.

How it is all going to end who knows but I think you may have hit on a possible solution and a way out for Lucas. I wonder if Harry is actually involved in whatever happened to Lucas and the confrontation on the roof involves Harry explaining this to Lucas.

(04-11-2010 11:40 AM)Lizziecaro Wrote:  

(03-11-2010 11:54 AM)arwyn Wrote:  The more I go back and watch episodes of series 9, the more I see a manipulation/hypnotism on Lucas. Vaughn carefully sets a series of triggers and Maya is the reward.

- Fifteen years and you haven't changed.
- What's been like, being Lucas North?
- Good to see you John.
- Did you open the suitcase?
- The suitcase has photos and casino chips, a passport and a photo of Maya.
- Good boy John opened the suitcase -> treat/reward/fix is Maya.
- Maya keeps saying it's been 15 years, I don't know you. You want her, you want her to remember, you want to be the John she knew.
- Vaughn = Want her forever? Get Albany.
- Lucas/John gets Albany, it's a photo of an exploding British ship. Another trigger?
- Immediately afterward, Lucas runs to Maya, like a dog wanting his candy after he did a good did.
- Maya keeps insisting that it's been so long, she wants to be sure it's the John she knew.
- Vaughn says it's not the real Albany, get the real one, or Maya will know who you are (not her John, Lucas?). Like a drug addict, you want your fix and you'll stay John to get it.
- Vaughn then threatens to take away Maya. "You had nothing, I gave you her". Again, John is nothing without Maya, his fix.
- John goes to Malcolm for Albany, then immediately back for a Maya fix, but Vaughn tells him it's a fake. That sends him over the edge.
- Vaughn sets off the final trigger. Dakar and the ugly past.
- When Vaughn kidnaps Maya, that's it. John embraces his fix completely, the sleeper awakens. The killer is set.

Notice how all of Vaughn's words were like a mantra? Hypnotic, repeating. Even Maya has been doing the same, repeating that she doesn't know John, it's been 15 years, it's got to be forever. The sleeper was pulled out, fed orders and treats, got him addicted and finally totally commanding.

As I said, straws... maybe...

That was a really fantastic analysis Arwyn. I have been feeling for some time that Lucas has been under the 'influence' of Vaughn rather than just acting out of fear. His 'bad' reactions are always either prompted by messages from Vaughn, contact with Maya or the word 'Albany'.

How it is all going to end who knows but I think you may have hit on a possible solution and a way out for Lucas. I wonder if Harry is actually involved in whatever happened to Lucas and the confrontation on the roof involves Harry explaining this to Lucas.

Agreed--thanks for the excellent analysis--I keep remembering bits and trying to figure out how they all fit together, this is great.

As per Harry on the roof and explaining--I'm wondering if Harry wasn't far more involved in the bombing than just "being on his watch"--something about his doggedness at certain moments has me wondering if he's trying to figure out just how dangerous Lucas could be to him with what he knows. (plus the super-secret protocol with Malcolm and the Albany file...)

hi, i'm new and i just wanted to agree with everyone that that is a very good summary of whats happened so far...
and how do you insert spoiler tags?
xxxx

Welcome, Floz! You can find out how to use spoiler tags here. If you have any further questions just send me a PM, I'll be glad to help.