Another parallel is the Danielle and Maya deaths, with Lucas getting what amounted to instant karma (TM John Lennon.) I had insisted in many posts that he did not let Danielle die. The scene with Maya put an end to that idea.

I am also waiting for the dust/preconceived ideas/emotions to settle before I do a season re-watch.

It's one of the few or only seasons I can re-watch, the others so violent that it stopped me, once was enough. Even though there was plenty of blood, bombs, hostage and car trunk drama, all of which I have trouble dealing with, I feel it was somewhat toned down from other seasons.

(10-11-2010 01:31 PM)theeyeshaveit Wrote:  

(10-11-2010 07:41 AM)JHyde Wrote:  Back on topic please.

There were 2 genuinely good episodes in this season: 1 and 6 and 7 wasn't far off. And there was a lot I liked about 3, 4 and 5.

But for me, the finale was truly terrible and the more I think about it, the more I hate it. Perhaps if we hadn't known Ruth was to be kidnapped, the suspense quotient would have been higher. But we did know.

The finale really soured the season for me. Ultimately, it definitely ranks down in the bottom 3 seasons in my book. Mostly because the Lucas storyline was so ludicrous after we had been trained to expect of the character. All his best lines from season 7 ring hollow now. It was just silly.

I enjoyed reading your view as a senior member too. Even though I have watched 5 full series and parts of other series, having a terrible memory, I can lay no claims to being a Spooks expert.

I keep thinking of all the wonderful options they had to explore if they wanted to make an agent behaving badly the story of the series but which did not involve completely undermining the character and his credibility in earlier series.

Some of the things they could have used as a basis for rogue Lucas behaviour.

Lucas could have come across something that raised questions about his prison time and possibly Harry's part in it and he decided to go on his own personal investigation into it, requiring him to steal files, meet strange people and the like.
Somebody could have turned up from that past requiring or causing him to embark on rogue action. Anything would be more feasible that what we had.

How did he get into a Russian prison? Was he captured on a mission, what was the mission? Was he planted there and if so why? Why did he spend so long there before they arranged a transfer? Did anyone stuff up?
Did Connie tell the truth when she said she was to blame for Lucas being in the prison or did she just say that as a final good deed to give Lucas peace of mind about Harry? What else happened to him in prison? Was anyone else involved with him personally besides the two Russians we have seen, now both dead. Were there any lingering effects on him, has he ever been brainwashed etc etc.

How much better would it have been if Lucas went off the rails for something plausible instead of something fanciful like personality turnarounds, not once but twice supposedly.

I FULLY agree with everything that you say. There were so many possibilities to devise a so much stronger overall plot by using something from Lucas past. The only thing that made this season watchable for me was the outstanding acting. I will probably start watching next series, but if it becomes as unprobable as this one, then I'm out.

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(10-11-2010 06:45 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  As for Beth and Dimitri, I think they look up to him, he is sort of their mentor and team leader, and in a way, I do sense a bit of hero-worshiping in some places. They may not have been close, but Lucas was their leader and teammate, it would still stung pretty bad that the man who had been watching their backs is someone that they can't trust and a evil murderer.

Well, Beth owes her job to him, doesn't she. He asks Harry to give him trust and the right to select his own team when he accepts to be section head. And he picks her. So she is bound to be especially loyal to him.

Having taken a few days to come to terms with the ending I've tried to look more objectively at the series as a whole.

I liked the individual storylines. My favourite, like for many, was ep 6, with lockdown and Lucas at his best. Least keen on the middle east one. Final episode best left forgotten.

The acting of RA, NW and PF was brilliant as always. Dimitri, Beth and Tariq didn't get enough to do, but with the series themes of trust and betrayal it was always going to be about Harry, Ruth and Lucas. And I can see the parallels with the Israeli father and daughter, and scientist father and daughter, which is why Harry phones Katherine before he meets John/Lucas.

The main problem for me was the arc. What happened to Nightingale? Harry killing Nicholas Blake was a stunning start to the series, but Blake wasn't the only member of Nightingale, although he was the most likely to be involved in the bombing which killed Ros. But what about the other members that he was so keen to track down in series 8? Does Harry have ADHD? - Can't concentrate on one subject for more than one series?

I appreciate it must be difficult for new writers to take over and maybe having to tidy up some loose ends left by their predecessors before they can start setting up their own arc but something was needed to close the previous one off. Lucas' past made him an obvious choice for a trust and betrayal theme and his past coming back to haunt him was fine. I enjoyed getting more and more clues to a murky past and trying to guess what it was all about. Never got so involved in Nightingale. But instead of using the obvious vehicle of Lucas' Russian prison past, with scope to take many betrayal routes; brainwashed into being an unwitting traitor to turning traitor to take revenge on Harry letting him get caught and/or leaving him there too long, as well as answering some of my (and it seems others) questions about why Lucas was sent to Russian and how/why did he get caught in the first place, the writers came up with a convoluted backstory which had so many plot holes that it didn't ring true to the Lucas we had seen in eps 7 & 8. - I still can't believe that the "if I don't have the trust of MI5 I won't be home, just back in England" speech and those to Connie and Elizabeta could be made by someone just trying to act the part of hero - There are too many plot holes to go into here but the ones that annoyed me the most were;
*We're expected to believe that Vaughn has kept a suitcase of momentos for 15 years just
on the off chance that he might be able to use it to blackmail its owner. What if John had decided that Dakar was too much excitement, and went back to England and became a plumber or milkman?
* MI5 vetting procedures - nuff said.
* If John knowingly blew up the British Embassy and killed his friend just for a passport so he could escape justice he would have killed a dodgy character like Vaughn without a qualm as soon as he threatened to reveal his past.
* Even getting John/Lucas to the position he was in at the end ep 7 there was still room for some sort of redemption, if only partial. I'm sure we can all come up with plausible endings.
But the writers were hell bent on making Lucas evil and keeping him that way.

Were the writers being brave taking a popular character and changing his identity? I don't think so. I think the writers were arrogant, thinking they could come into a series like Spooks, turn it on its head, and think they could get away with it. They broke the cardinal rule of writing; know your audience. All they have achieved is alienating supporters and ruining eps 7 & 8 for many Lucas fans.

Will I be able to watch eps 7 & 8 again? Only if I wipe 9.8 from my mind and replace it with my own version. Will I watch season 10? Don't know. If they use it to go back over Harry's career and fill in some of the gaps then probably. It would be good if they could bring back some of the previous characters, dead or alive, in flash-back. I still want to know how Harry explained away shooting Arkady Katchimov. Which reminds me, what happened to the Russian and Chinese agents captured at the end of ep 6? Are they even now being swapped for other hapless MI5 agents languishing in Russian and Chinese jails as a result of other missions bungled by Harry? Have I solved the problem of where to find the next Section D leader?

(13-11-2010 02:36 PM)conniesachs Wrote:  *We're expected to believe that Vaughn has kept a suitcase of momentos for 15 years just
on the off chance that he might be able to use it to blackmail its owner. What if John had decided that Dakar was too much excitement, and went back to England and became a plumber or milkman?

I haven't thought of that, maybe when they got back to England John told Vaughn he was going to carry on Lucas's life, but even then Vaughn wouldn't have known that John was going to be a success at MI5

(13-11-2010 02:36 PM)conniesachs Wrote:  * If John knowingly blew up the British Embassy and killed his friend just for a passport so he could escape justice he would have killed a dodgy character like Vaughn without a qualm as soon as he threatened to reveal his past.

I think this has been one of the main problems for me. Lucas may not have been able to kill a man in cold blood, but I very sure John would have, considering what Vaughn knew.

(13-11-2010 02:36 PM)conniesachs Wrote:  * Even getting John/Lucas to the position he was in at the end ep 7 there was still room for some sort of redemption, if only partial. I'm sure we can all come up with plausible endings.
But the writers were hell bent on making Lucas evil and keeping him that way.

All the way through that episode I keep waiting for the twist that would get Lucas out of this mess, very disappointed.

Lucas was a loyal MI5 officer and the writers just went for the WOW factor in a story that didn't work.

I agree with you, femaleBertieWooster. I thought there was less violence and it became a more enjoyable programme to watch.

Hello, am new to the forum, but not new to Spooks

Overall, I really enjoyed this series of Spooks, although having watched the whole series again in one hit (thank you iPlayer ), it still doesn't quite feel right with the about turn with Lucas. I am almost hoping in a way that when they write series 10, they put some flashbacks in that fill in some of the back-history between Lucas and Harry.

It's took a while to actually understand how I feel about season 9. On the whole I enjoyed all the episodes on their own. I felt that the season as a whole seemed very 'unspooks' like.

I'm having trouble understanding the Lucas/John story. If he loved Maya as much as he is made out to, why wait that long? John seemed to be a self absorbed and and selfish man even accounting for the time spent in Russia why wait that long for the woman he loved? Her feelings didn't seem to count for much as far as he was concerned otherwise why expect her to leave all she knows under very suspicious circumstances for him?

If he is capable of killing all those people in the bomb blast, then killing someone who is blackmailing you should be fairly easy, so I'm having trouble with that as well.

If you discount most of the Lucas/John story then season 9 was great. Fantastic acting from Peter Firth and Nicola Walker and also Richard Armitage, he does do bad characters well.

I loved it. It was thouroughly entertaining and the episodes worked well on their own.
(And i always missed that from the earlier seasons).

The little bits and pieces to do with repeat footage, costume (sometimes it's really obvious when something was filmed same day as the characters don't bother changing clothes for the different episode) and the mobile phone issues bugged me a bit but i suppose i can deal with that.

Overall i think it felt angsty. However there are some funny moments in it and i laughed a few times.

It would not have helped Lucas to kill Vaughn earlier. We know that from the start the Chinese was aware of Lucas and Maya, and would simply have stepped into the void created by Vaughn's death and continue to blackmail him by threatening Maya.

Since people have been talking about this, the idea occurred to me that Lucas did not jump whole hog into the John personality until Vaughn uttered his life changing (personality changing) line. Until that upheaval Lucas was able to maintain his identity while feeling blackmailed, confused, etc. He was still operating under his personal code of not killing unarmed civilians.

That's why I still think it was more of an order than a reality check.

Vaughn released the killer and got a knife in the leg for his trouble.