(01-12-2010 12:09 AM)Byatil Wrote:  I'm just watching and waiting for S10. Hopefully some questions will be answered then, but frustratingly I fear nothing will be explained. Perhaps the S9 boxset might have some extras which may shed some light on the plot? It's a long-shot, but you never know!

I like the idea of a sort of panel-of-apology assembled for the sake of the DVD. Contrition is the friend of error

(30-11-2010 11:13 PM)binkie Wrote:  Are we to assume he was lifted in Moscow because he was just too stupid to lie?!

I guess we will never find out the Moscow story, and what we've been given instead was that John/Lucas deserved 8 years of torture as punishment.

It's so stupid and such an insult. What had once been a beautiful gift of ultimate sacrifice and loyalty for his team and his people have now been turned into this twisted sense of self-punishment. These writers sure know how to ruin things!

(30-11-2010 02:55 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Well, if we accept the theory that Lucas is suffering from split-personality disorder, then the plot somewhat makes sense...

Except the writers does not seem to go this way at all. They make no mention that Lucas/John is suffering from mental issues at all, it's just that he wants to do this for Maya and that he was a bad person. They made no attempts to even show to the audience that maybe John/Lucas has some mental issues or suffered some traumatic horrors that may have led to John's actions in Dakar.

If the writers really wanted to go with the Lucas-Is-John story, I don't think it was completely horrid, but they made no explanations of how and why John did what he did or how he became Lucas, the reasons given to us were weak and does not stand up to scrutiny.

If they had explained that John had suffered some unimaginable horrors as a child that messed up his psyche and he has mental problems that led to his actions in Dakar, then at least some of this ridiculous storyline would make more sense.

But they didn't explain, and whatever reasons they gave are just weak and quickly glossed over.

(30-11-2010 02:55 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Well, if we accept the theory that Lucas is suffering from split-personality disorder, then the plot somewhat makes sense.

Lucas was the dominant persona, whilst the traumatised John was buried deep within L/J's psych. Whilst Lucas was the dominant persona, he had no recollection of ever encountering any other version of himself. I'm not quite sure how multiple/split-personality disorders work, but someone once told me "it's like a revolver", with each different personality surfacing just as a revolver shoots out different bullets. If we accept this theory to be correct, then it is possible that the dominant Lucas persona simply had no idea of the John persona (as it was so deeply buried within him), that the Lucas persona constructed an entire recollection of a past life (the brain can apparently do tremendous things under trauma), and that all it took for the John persona to resurface and become dominant was the right trigger (...Maya? Or Vaughn. The triggers were poor ones, but if we accept them as triggers it makes a bit more sense).

We then see John in 9.8 constantly struggling with Lucas, as Lucas obviously wants to help Harry understand, whereas John is intent on destruction (of himself and others). If we view 9.8 as L/J's internal battle of different persona's, then I think it almost makes sense?

Either that or there really is no plausible explanation whatsoever for this storyline. You be the judge

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On a different note, I would love to ask RA what his interpretation of this storyline is, and how he went about portraying Lucas' downfall. Because I think he may be the only man on the planet who will ever understand why Lucas acted the way he did in this series!

Sounds feasible. I was wondering how much you could bury an identity inside your head if there was enough trauma to warrant it. I think you've answered that.

In the meantime, I'm preparing to bleach my brain... (thanks for that one, Binkie, or was it Byatil...? Oh no, see what happens when you try and make sense of this? Maybe I'll just go straight for the white wine...)

The brain is incredibly versatile when it comes to protecting itself It can do incredible things in the name of self-defence. It's a very, very far-out theory that was never actually explained in the episode, but it's all I can surmise

White wine sounds very appealing right now!

(30-11-2010 02:55 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Lucas was the dominant persona, whilst the traumatised John was buried deep within L/J's psych. Whilst Lucas was the dominant persona, he had no recollection of ever encountering any other version of himself. I'm not quite sure how multiple/split-personality disorders work, but someone once told me "it's like a revolver", with each different personality surfacing just as a revolver shoots out different bullets. If we accept this theory to be correct, then it is possible that the dominant Lucas persona simply had no idea of the John persona...

My response probably belongs in another thread, but I’m not sure which. I’ll leave it here, and see how quickly it gets moved!

The dissociative identity disorder explanation – while obviously being the conclusion the production would like us to draw – is one that I still find impossible to accept on its own terms. This is the recurring theme of season 9 for me. Even if we attempt to leave aside the contradictions and leaden-literal reinterpretation (or misinterpretation) as it relates to previous seasons, this season did such a terrible job of setting out its own narrative mechanism. It’s not that I don’t understand what the writers want me to conclude, or that I don’t understand what it is the writers think they are telling me. The problem is, and will continue to be, that there is insufficient evidence in the structure and content of the writing to support the direction of that writing. One very obvious example of this is the casual approach to the sense in which John is hidden at all.

If the revolver analogy is to hold true, the script would need to establish, and maintain, a context for the conceit of discrete Lucas / John personas in which the two values never touched. Perhaps they would slide across each other, but they could never converse, and there could be no exchange of information or quality. However, because season 9 trod back into seasons 7/8 to retrieve elements of Lucas’ behaviour that were suddenly to be taken as evidence of John’s conscious influence in Lucas’ unconscious life (such as the utterly unconvincing explanation for the lack of personal possessions), we cannot think that the writers are applying this logic. It gets worse when we consider the way in which John’s ownership of the means of survival in Moscow is expressed as an element of Lucas’ own awareness of that experience. Lucas, the writers are saying, accepted the punishment-for-a-different-crime justification of those eight years, even though the crime was John’s. Either the writers want us to accept this detailed exchange of information between ignorance and hiding (which contradicts the obliviousness line on which the rest of the plotline seems to depend), or they mean us to conclude that Lucas is a part, created and played by John on a conscious level (which renders redundant any need for the briefcase of doom).

I don't expect a clinical discussion of psychiatric reasoning, but neither do I expect that good quality drama should be so relaxed in holding to a coherent narrative plan. Pass me the bottle of wine. And a straw

(30-11-2010 02:55 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Well, if we accept the theory that Lucas is suffering from split-personality disorder, then the plot somewhat makes sense.

Lucas was the dominant persona, whilst the traumatised John was buried deep within L/J's psych. Whilst Lucas was the dominant persona, he had no recollection of ever encountering any other version of himself. I'm not quite sure how multiple/split-personality disorders work, but someone once told me "it's like a revolver", with each different personality surfacing just as a revolver shoots out different bullets. If we accept this theory to be correct, then it is possible that the dominant Lucas persona simply had no idea of the John persona (as it was so deeply buried within him), that the Lucas persona constructed an entire recollection of a past life (the brain can apparently do tremendous things under trauma), and that all it took for the John persona to resurface and become dominant was the right trigger (...Maya? Or Vaughn. The triggers were poor ones, but if we accept them as triggers it makes a bit more sense).

We then see John in 9.8 constantly struggling with Lucas, as Lucas obviously wants to help Harry understand, whereas John is intent on destruction (of himself and others). If we view 9.8 as L/J's internal battle of different persona's, then I think it almost makes sense?

Either that or there really is no plausible explanation whatsoever for this storyline. You be the judge

---

I must say that I am incligned to go with the second option you provided

I can not believe that, or understand why, Lucas/ John would have a split-personality-disorder in the way the storytelling led us to believe.
Because; if Lucas was the dominant persona, like you said, and had no memory of ever encountering the John-persona, than why would Lucas have said to Harry in 9.7, that he endured those 8 years of prison as a sort of redemption for the British-embasey-bombing and the murdering of the real Lucas North, wich were both commited by John Bateman?
If the Lucas-persona never met the John-persona, than why would he feel guilty for something he didn't know he (his other persona) did?

I am aware that the human brain is capable of extra-ordinary things and has the amazing gift of survival, but this revelation we saw in S9.7 and S9.8 doesn't make any sense at all, given the fact that there are too many things that don't add up.
Even if Lucas' brain made an entire nonexisting past up, simply to survive, there still is the matter of Lucas taking the blame for Johns behavior, someone he apparently never knew existed, and all this took place before the briefcase or Vaughn or Maya came in the picture, so the trigger-thing doesn't make sense either, when you look at the timeline in wich the events took place.

I agree that we see Lucas/John struggeling with himself( as to say: with his concience, and not with another personality) in 9.8, but this whole duplicity-twist the writers gave to the story is too far-fetched given the poor evidence( IMO; no evidence at all!) we were provided with during the whole season ( and S7 & 8, for that matter) to be convincingly to me.

Now you may pass that bottle to me, please (it may be whiskey, too, with a straw).

This is really beginning to hurt my head!

I just... I really want there to be some explanation for the way Lucas' character was developed in S9, but I think I'm clutching wildly at straws in the hope of finding something which simply isn't there. I know the writers generally come up with a number of potential plots, and probably scripted a few different ideas before finalising on this Lucas/John rubbish, so I can only hope that there is in fact somewhere a much more intelligent and feasible script which was intended to be used, but for some reason had to be thrown aside. That's the only explanation I can think of as to why this plot was so blatantly rushed and haphazard. I just don't think the writers had enough time to explore the plot properly, as they were under pressure to complete the scripts to a deadline. Without properly evaluating the plot, they couldn't have noticed the ridiculous plot-holes. I can only surmise that they had to write something shocking yet entertaining in a very short amount of time... either that, or they were just incredibly blasé about the entire thing and thought they could get away with being a bit lazy

Curiously, I think a lot of the misery generated by the sudden appearance of John could have been aleviated if, rather than starting with the premis of John trying to keep himself hidden while continuing to operate as Lucas, the writers had chosen instead to have Lucas discover for himself that he didn't exist. All the excitement of betrayal (with added existential crises) and a bonus helping of tragedy! Admittedly, this does nothing for the plot holes. But, apparently, that's not a problem for a Spooks writer at the moment Keep the straws coming...

(01-12-2010 11:07 PM)Byatil Wrote:  I just don't think the writers had enough time to explore the plot properly, as they were under pressure to complete the scripts to a deadline. Without properly evaluating the plot, they couldn't have noticed the ridiculous plot-holes. I can only surmise that they had to write something shocking yet entertaining in a very short amount of time... either that, or they were just incredibly blasé about the entire thing and thought they could get away with being a bit lazy

Well, as a writer myself, all I can say is that the whole "under pressure and deadline" excuse is not gonna cut it with me. Coming up with a logical, shocking, and entertaining plot is not difficult, there are plenty of plausible yet shocking ideas and twists they could have easily gone with, instead they chose the dumbest way. If a simple college student such as myself can come up with a plausible storyline, then I don't see why the writers (who are paid to write it) can't. It's an insult to the fans' intelligence. And frankly a shame and disgrace to all writers everywhere.

(02-12-2010 12:51 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(01-12-2010 11:07 PM)Byatil Wrote:  I just don't think the writers had enough time to explore the plot properly, as they were under pressure to complete the scripts to a deadline. Without properly evaluating the plot, they couldn't have noticed the ridiculous plot-holes. I can only surmise that they had to write something shocking yet entertaining in a very short amount of time... either that, or they were just incredibly blasé about the entire thing and thought they could get away with being a bit lazy

Well, as a writer myself, all I can say is that the whole "under pressure and deadline" excuse is not gonna cut it with me. Coming up with a logical, shocking, and entertaining plot is not difficult, there are plenty of plausible yet shocking ideas and twists they could have easily gone with, instead they chose the dumbest way. If a simple college student such as myself can come up with a plausible storyline, then I don't see why the writers (who are paid to write it) can't. It's an insult to the fans' intelligence. And frankly a shame and disgrace to all writers everywhere.

Well yes, that's what confuses me. I'm hardly a professional writer, yet I could easily brainstorm a number of different story arcs that could have been used for the series. Perhaps there was someone who was being especially pushy, and refused to let their idea slide? I just can't believe that this is the best they could come up with; this must have been a final resort, or at least a plan B!