Episode 5 Discussion [re-watch]

[JHyde]

David Wollstonecroft's last episode for the show and Danny's 'first' kill.

What did you all think?

This is one of the best episodes in the season, I think. I love the juxtaposition of Ruth and Malcolm singing Mozart's Requiem while Danny stalks his prey. (I would love to sing at St Martin's in the Fields and I really hope they do things like this, should I ever actually get to the UK!)

Great episode for Adam, I love how he talks Danny through this awful but necessary thing he has to do.

Keeley's showdown with Will works well. She's good at that stuff and good at the empathetic friend too, which is why I think she's so good in her current role on A2A.

Zoe is absolutely right, I think, when she says that she and Danny have killed before. It's a sad truth of their job - at least as it exists in our [spooks] world. Stella Rimington and others might protest that such a thing would never happen, but if it's not officers themselves who have to do it, it's almost certainly outsourced. This is a scenario I can believe happening in terms of 'clinical wetwork'.

And Ruth this episode? So sad, that she feels closer to this man whom the Service is looking out for than she does to anyone 'real' in her life. I always laugh at the fact that John is played by Barnaby Kay, her husband in real life.

Over to you!

[CONDOR]

I have to say that when I watched this episode I found it by far the slowest, and rather tedious. I appreciate the subject matter, and how they tried to show the moral conflict in killing somebody in cold blood, as opposed to doing it in the line of duty in the form of self defence, and how even these trained professionals have difficulty with this task (unlike the normal depiction of MI5 agents who are portrayed as cold blooded efficient killers).

I did think that it was handled intelligently, so too the focus on Ruth's empty life and how it is possible to become close to somebody doing this job just by the knowledge that you build up of them whilst monitoring their life. I am sure this must happen in real life. I was touched by the way Ruth was so nervous about going on a "date", and how Malcolm took her under his wing like a true friend. In fact I just wanted to hug her myself.

I just felt that the whole program lacked pace. Being from a medical background I failed to see why Danny had to inject the ankle, other than perhaps that the injection site would be less likely to be noticed at a PM.

No sorry this was by far my least favourite episode, though I shall endeavour to watch it again along with the commentary then perhaps I may change my mind.

[Silktie]

I found this episode exceedingly bleak, and I agree with Condor that its pace is too slow. I'm usually the first one to ask for more character moments, but I actually feel this episode suffers from having too many. The A plot is not really about a threat to the UK, but rather about Danny's personal journey in having to kill this man. Perhaps, then, it would have helped if the B plot had been about a real threat to the UK, but instead we got another personal story about Ruth's lonely existence. Then, to top it all, we got the C plot about Danny/Zoe/Will. Don't get me wrong, I love all these storylines individually, but it's just too much all crammed into one episode.

I loved Malcolm helping Ruth, and looking on all brotherly and proud as she talked to the bloke at the Requiem. I half expected him to pop up from behind the fountain in that last scene, as he was so keen to support Ruth. I'm not sure what the hell Sam was doing though. I thought it was pretty low of her to be spying on Ruth and reporting to Harry, and then actually encouraging Ruth to continue doing what she knows Harry didn't approve of. Poor Ruth. She did look lovely in that dress though.

I agree with JHyde on Adam in this episode, he was really wonderful with Danny. It's interesting that in the first scene where Adam and Harry is telling Zoe that she'll have to kill the guy, Harry seems a lot less sympathetic to their feelings than Adam does. It's as though Harry, with his many years in the field behind him, has been emotionally stunted to situations like these, and basically feels that this is the job that needs to be done and you just get on with it. The younger Adam still realises what it feels like to do this for the first time and therefore relates better to the young agents in the field.

Danny was really shitty with Zoe, specifically in the way he told her about Will's brother and the photos. This episode is full of people failing spectacularly to separate the personal from the professional, just like Harry did in the previous episode. So perhaps the moral of these two episodes is that you can never fully separate the two, however hard you might try.

[Adam Carter]

A conflicting episode for me. As CONDOR mentioned, I appreciated the idea behind the episode. It's a noble one. But I have two major problems with this episode.

Number one being the B plot. I really felt like entirely too much screen time was spent with the Ruth subplot. I understand the attempt to speak to the idea of following in love with you survey, and the conflict it presents, but I found it rather distracting and tonally misplaced amongst the Danny/Zoe story.

My other issue isn't necessarily with the execution of the episode, but more to do with Danny and Zoe's characterization. I have a major problem with the fact that both of them simply couldn't bring themselves to kill the guy DESPITE the obvious fact that he was a clear detriment to not only British security but humanity as a whole. To me, you have to look at the big picture and see how much of a danger this guy was. That seems fairly obvious. And the fact that Danny and Zoe couldn't see this makes them across as weak.

That being said, there were some great things in this episode. For one, it's one of the better directed episodes of the series. Series 3, in general, has the best "look" of any other series. The acting, especially from David and Keeley, was also tremendous.

[lwhite53]

I agree with Condor and Silktie -- the pacing in the ep was terrible and the ep really dragged. I kept looking at the counter on the dvd player to see how much time was left, which is never a good sign! I think the issue, for me, was that there really wasn't a credible, cohesive story -- this was a string of individual character studies, with the rogue scientist plot pasted on.

There were a lot of moments I liked -- Colin at the shooting range, Zoe at new recruit training, Ruth watching The Red Shoes, Malcolm sneaking surveillance transcripts to Ruth at home (very naughty, Malcolm), Malcolm in formal wear, Requiem going on at same time that Danny is committing murder -- but they just didn't hang together in a satisfying way.

Interesting Harry "stuff" going on in this ep:
-Ruth questioning putting Danny and Zoe together on the ep and Harry seemingly totally oblivious to what's going on between them. She's much more aware of what's happening with his officers than he is.
-Harry using Sam to spy on Ruth, pretty much out of the blue and with no explanation. What's up with that?
-Harry's strange jollity when Sam tells him what Ruth is doing -- very bizarre response. Overcompensating for Sam's benefit?
-Harry being uncharacteristically sharp with Ruth after he learns of Ruth's infatuation with John Fortescue ("Is that a yes, or a perhaps.")
-Harry telling Ruth that what she does with her time is her business as long as it doesn't cross over into MI5's business. Is he trying to tell her that he knows what she's been doing?
I think there's pretty clear subtext coming from Harry in this ep, but Ruth doesn't seem to be picking up on it.

Danny tells Zoe about Will's brother out of spite and for revenge -- he wants her to feel as bad as he does. He's hurting after he murders Newland and he wants her to hurt, too. It's interesting that Zoe never even questions Danny's info -- she just assumes he's telling her the truth and poor Will pays the price.

[JHyde]

(24-04-2010 08:15 PM)Silktie Wrote:  I found this episode exceedingly bleak, and I agree with Condor that its pace is too slow. I'm usually the first one to ask for more character moments, but I actually feel this episode suffers from having too many. The A plot is not really about a threat to the UK, but rather about Danny's personal journey in having to kill this man. Perhaps, then, it would have helped if the B plot had been about a real threat to the UK, but instead we got another personal story about Ruth's lonely existence. Then, to top it all, we got the C plot about Danny/Zoe/Will. Don't get me wrong, I love all these storylines individually, but it's just too much all crammed into one episode.


Danny was really shitty with Zoe, specifically in the way he told her about Will's brother and the photos. This episode is full of people failing spectacularly to separate the personal from the professional, just like Harry did in the previous episode. So perhaps the moral of these two episodes is that you can never fully separate the two, however hard you might try.

The first point is true, Silktie. I absolutely thought this the first two times I saw this episode. But weirdly enough, it's ended up being one of the better episodes of the season for me. It also harks back to a point I make about season 3 generally. That there are wonderful bits in every episode, but it's hard to push aside that sometimes they fall over at the gate.

Series 8 Spoiler: show

This was also my main criticism of season 8, and I think I will end up feeling about the same about that season too.

Your second point about Danny is more complicated. But I don't really blame him. To be fair, he hadn't told her yet and chose the worst possible moment to do so, but given what he'd just been through....I just feel for both of them so much at the end of this one.

[Silktie]

Yeah, me too. The overall feeling this episode left me with is one of desolation and isolation. It's as if it hammered home the point that you cannot do this job and come out unscathed on the other side. Both Adam and Danny have to live with themselves after assassinating another human being, and is struggling with it. Danny is also alone amidst Zoe's happiness and can't help but destroy that happiness for her in the end. Misery does love company. Ruth cannot find love and companionship outside of her job, and neither can Harry. That image of him alone on the roof after speaking to Sam stays with me, as in the end he is just as isolated as Ruth is, and Malcolm for that matter. Zoe, who at the beginning of the episode is telling the new recruits how wonderful it can be dating someone outside the service, at the end realises just how spectacularly it can go wrong, and what an incredible amount of trust is needed to make such a relationship work.

The only one who seems relatively untouched is Sam, but even she is forced to spy on her friend and reporting her actions to her boss. On some level they must all know that even your friends in the service are always watching you, and will report you if needs be. How deep can these friendships really be then?

(25-04-2010 02:54 AM)Adam Carter Wrote:  My other issue isn't necessarily with the execution of the episode, but more to do with Danny and Zoe's characterization. I have a major problem with the fact that both of them simply couldn't bring themselves to kill the guy DESPITE the obvious fact that he was a clear detriment to not only British security but humanity as a whole. To me, you have to look at the big picture and see how much of a danger this guy was. That seems fairly obvious. And the fact that Danny and Zoe couldn't see this makes them across as weak.

Agreed. I also felt it made them look incredibly naive and out of sync with the amount of experience they both have.

[YourFutureMuse]

Aspects of this ep make it for me , not only the best in series but one of my all time favourites. I too loved the juxtaposition from Ruth to Danny and the use of the music (It's all I think about when I listen to Lacrimosa now haha not sure thats a good thing ) I loved the clash between uber civilised and cultured to murder. Zoe's confrontation with Will is perhaps my favourite spooks scene of all. KH is just amazing. Another interesting thing is that although Danny was clearly spiteful in telling Zoe ( as if he's thinking I'm upset so I want Zoe to be miserable too) I don't think badly of Danny, just feel sorry for him more.

However there was one major thing I detested about this ep (and I am surprised noone else seems to feel the same) and that is the Ruth story which tbh I think is downright weird haha and also not particularly in the character of Ruth. I appreciate Ruth is sad and lonely but still I don't believe any one, particular someone as diligent and professional as Ruth would stoop as low as to abuse their position to, for want of a better word stalk somebody. I am surprised that Sam and Malcolm encouraged it haha although malc as Giles was adorable

[JHyde]

I love that everyone has mixed feelings about this episode and yet feels differently!

[lwhite53]

It's also interesting that no one is really questioning the approval of state-sponsored assassination which Simon Crawford Collins (in the commentary) thought would be the most problematic aspect of the ep. I think that got lost in all the personal stories, somehow.