Series 9 Episode 8 discussion

[KoiGal]

Overall, I thought that the finale was poor. But I think that the writing has been poor throughout the whole series. Usually the writers have managed to balance team story lines with strong character development and the side stories of 'personal' lives. This really didn't happen.

I'm not overly concerned that Lucas was not who we thought (hoped) he was; that could have been developed more. But, it all felt rushed and convenient at the end. Did Lucas do the right thing? Well, he told Harry where Ruth was and although he made the bomb threat it was only ever a ruse.

The best bit was the closing credit when we learn about 2011.

Poor Harry though. He really couldn't win last night could he? And give him the decent retirement that he deserves.

[George]

(09-11-2010 03:53 AM)JHyde Wrote:  Apart from the scenes between Ruth and Lucas, I actually felt like the episode was a let down. I did enjoy the idea of what the next season might be about, but every major plot twist was predictable.

The 'flashbacks' were meant to indicate that 'Lucas' was still in there, thus making his jump off the roof a reasonable action.

Bleh. Worst Spooks finale ever.

One interesting passage in Ruth/Lucas discussion as they

Series 9.1, 9.8 Spoiler: show

discuss death maths/balance (saved/killed) as she did with Harry near the end of ep. 1; sounds to me at the end Ruth has changed idea about being just maths

[loladom]

Just given it another watch and some things were a bit clearer. The play of Vaughn=John and Harry=Lucas in the character flashbacks and voices in the head was more revealing second time around. A bit rushed but it is there. As John, he was attracted to Vaughn to be a someone and then as Lucas, Harry allowed him to be someone in a better way and redeem John's behaviour in Dakor and killing the real Lucas North. Definately see the mental struggle. He'd punished 'John' in Russia, built his redemption being 'Lucas' and tangled the web so much he believed his new truth just as Vaghn said he did. He was a hero in MI5 with as much zeal as he was a villian as John. 2 sides of the need to find a mentor and be a someone. Maya was the catalyst in that she represented John when he was still 'good' before Vaughn's influence, before the battle. She was his vehicle to go back to an innocent and right time. But she, as a person was really irrelevant to the real battle. It was all Vaughn v Harry if you notice the voice overs. John v Lucas. Maya was forgotten. You see the struggle in that he was doing a dreadful thing to Ruth, yet he was compassionate at the same time. Duality throughout.

It's possible, he still gave Albany to the Chinese not only in revenge for Maya/ his lost innocent self, but so he could make Harry a 'traitor the same as me' Back to the Vaughn v Harry theme.

I think it's a clever angle, and means a different type of exit. It just didn't get enough airtime to play it out, we needed 10 episodes!

And poor Harry indeed, how could he win?

[Tea Lady]

(09-11-2010 04:11 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  I know Lucas/John jumping off is rather cowardly because he couldn't take going back to prison now he had nothing to live for. But you can always think that he jumped because OUR Lucas is still in there fighting evil John, and that OUR Lucas knew that he had to end this before John hurts anymore people. Think of this as OUR Lucas's sacrifice one last time to save his team and the people who matters.

That's how I get through this....

I think it was Lucas North jumping off the building, not John Bateman. It was the decent side that jumped as he knew deep down that Harry was not to blame and that killing him would not change HIM. I think Lucas went to that buidling, where the real Lucas North lived, to pay a debt. I always think he intended to jump.

The real Lucas was there in that warehouse with Ruth for a while too. The advice he gave her was sincere. As for the injection and drip, did anyone think it a bit strange that Ruth was slightly awake when Harry got there? Do we really know what was in that drip? We never found out.

It could just be argued that John was young and naive and was taken in by Vaughn. He tried to put things right by living Lucas North's life but he couldn't escape his past. Something Harry is to experience in Series 10 no doubt.

[Forever Secret]

I agree it was Lucas not John who jumped, Lucas was a good man, John as the man he wanted to leave behind.
I was just thinking about this, about the scene with Ruth we see Lucas, the good side who offers the advice to her, to take the chance while its there, but when she asks "How would you do it how would you kill me?" and he tells her he'd shoot her in the back of the head, it seems that is John talking but when she gets through to him, he can't face looking at her while killing her, he doesn't shoot her instead he hooks her up to the drip and gives her a chance of living, and that way he doesn't have to see her face as she dies, seems like that was Lucas, the good man who still would give Ruth a chance, John would've just shot her
And again on the roof, you can kind of see a change, to start with its John with the gun to Harry's head, then the flashbacks come and we see Lucas, who in the the chose to end it.
Poor Lucas seems like after it all he had some sort of mutilple personality, because he started off as just using the name Lucas and ended being a Lucas North, he changed from John Bateman into a good person saving lives, and John was closed away, then when Vaughn returned, when he was reminded of John he became confused as to who he was

[Beatriz]

I thought that too, how could Ruth possibly be awake so quicky? It felt a bit weird.

I'm with those of you that were a bit disappointed with the finale; although it kept me on the edge of the seat and had woderful scenes, the general idea wasn't great. And the issue is not about Lucas/John turning evil, but for no big twists, just a way to finish what they have started, nothing more (I don't know if you understand what I mean, I'm not very skilled with words).

For me it wasn't a character assasination, if there were no twists or turns in Spooks, it will be very boringand predictable. Not everybody is totally good or totally evil, that doesn't exist, heroes doesn't exist.

Tea Lady makes a very interesting point, for me it didn't felt quite right, I think we will never know if there was an alternative ending and how was going to finish this series if that were the case...

(09-11-2010 02:04 AM)tyme4t Wrote:  Well Well Well so that was 9.8! Mixed feelings....
Things I was a bit disappointed by:
No Malcolm / the lack of twists / the Chinese agents from earlier in series - where were they ? / Alec White character - ok I admit I was hoping that it was going to be Tom Quinn

I also thought Tom Quinn was going to make an appearance, haha naive I know...

[NightOwl]

(09-11-2010 03:10 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 01:32 PM)NightOwl Wrote:  Let me start shouting:

Seriously? It's Richard Armitage's fault and not the writers? Seriously?

So if RA hadn't given his notice, Lucas would have what? What's the "real" ending the that the writers wanted that would have pleased us all but RA thwarted. How was this mess of plot actually supposed to end? All would be forgiven? Lucas would have returned as Section Chief and lived happily ever after?

The writers chose Lucas's fate, plain and simple. They created the idea of the Dakar and false identity. They had Lucas sell Albany to the Chinese. It seems quite clear to me that the writers knew at least halfway through the series that RA was not returning. (Although who made that decision, RA or TPTB, is not clear.) They made the choices that lead directly to the rooftop scene, not RA.

Please don't defend the idiocy of the the writers by slurring the actor.

I am defending the writers because NONE OF US know what went on behind the scenes this series, and whether this ending was rushed or not, or had to be changed at the last minute after filming finished in July. I was putting forward an argument based on the evidence presented which is that the ending seemed to "not quite fit" compared to past series, and that perhaps Lucas North MAY have had a better ending, had Richard Armitage not gone for the Hobbit. I'm not blaming him. Who am I to blame him. I am just putting forward a reasonable argument as to why Lucas' end, was as it was. I don't think I was slurring the actor either so do not slur me by saying I was. Anyway, who wouldn't leave for an opportunity like that.

There is no point shouting and screaming at this because it is just a TV programme and as I say (again) none of us know what went on behind the scenes in terms of RA leaving. As for keeping actors in the dark about their fates, do people here have inside knowledge about the actors contracts with Kudos and the various get out clauses? I don't think so, so how on earth do any of us know what has gone on? We don't know. How can you defend what you don't know?

You can't defend what you don't know, and you are right that none of us know what went on behind the scenes. But you are the one who began to speculate about RA and the writers. You are the one who suggested criticism for the Lucas debacle may lie with the actor rather than the writers. You're engaging in blatant speculation about the writers' motivatation based on no facts at all.

"I have a feeling that this was not the ending Kudos wanted."

and

"Things are never just black and white and if people are thinking that this was a strange ending for a Spooks series, then there is probably more to it than we know."

Your words, not mine.

You aren't putting forward a reasonable argument or offering "evidence" about why the Lucas storyline/ending didn't "quite fit." You're simply offering up your subjective feelings and thoughts. That's fine, but that is not the same thing as presenting facts or evidence.

You are suggesting, without any evidence, that the actor may not have been professional enough to provide the writers with sufficient notice to create a exit for the character that meets the show's standards. That is defending the writers' decisions at the expense of the actor, IMO. That you don't "blame" RA for going for the Hobbit is mighty big-hearted of you considering the nobody has actually presented any evidence that the movie had any effect on Lucas's storyline.

[BravoNine]

(09-11-2010 05:14 PM)Beatriz Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 02:04 AM)tyme4t Wrote:  Well Well Well so that was 9.8! Mixed feelings....
Things I was a bit disappointed by:
No Malcolm / the lack of twists / the Chinese agents from earlier in series - where were they ? / Alec White character - ok I admit I was hoping that it was going to be Tom Quinn

I also thought Tom Quinn was going to make an appearance, haha naive I know...

I wish it was Tom too!!

But since Harry needed someone who wasn't close to this, I knew Tom wasn't the one. Because Tom is close to this, he was trained by Lucas, served under Lucas, so that would have made it difficult for Tom to see Lucas crash.

I just don't like the Alec character, doesn't seem very original other than filling in missing air.

[femaleBertieWooster]

(09-11-2010 09:24 AM)fusey007 Wrote:  So here is my first post on the forums...

On first appearance I was extremely let down by the finale, especially with there being no trademark Spooks twist at the end. But then maybe the 'twist' is that there is no twist? certainly a diffent route to previous season finales.
-----------------
For all the speculation of Maya having greater involvement she turned out to be a bit of a nothing character, but honourable in her actions of luring John-Lucas into the trap.
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Alec should be really be in a position to take over as section chief, despite his acomplished record of spotting 'liars'. surely a role in internal afairs is vastly different to that of a field agent?

They should have saved the big twist, Vaughn's "dreamed you were a hero and woke up a killer," for the last episode. They would still have to massage some other ideas to make it work for the character of Lucas/John.

It was a very good explanation that he was not really that in love with Maya, just wanted to turn back time, mentioned by someone in the early pages of this thread. That needed to be more front and center for my money.

Re Alec: Very appealing character, the name bringing up memories of Alec Leamus from The Spy Who Came in From the Cold and Alec Guinness as Smiley. I instantly thought the new Harry as did a few others here.

[A Cousin]

WOW! I have read the whole thread. Just - Wow! I don't even really know what to say. But I'll find something, I'm sure.

Erm...I fall into the camp of being slightly disappointed with this finale. And not only because they stopped Harry stripping at his tie - damn them! Would a little chest have killed them? Anyhoo, maybe my expectations were too high and I read too many spoilers or had too much banana bread and Johnnie Walker Red. I dunno. I was a little discombobulated that all the paranoia and betrayal and lies and deceit came down to something as simple as a file for a horrific program that didn't even work? I am still working out whether I think this is intentional or not. I'm going with intentional for the moment.

I really like the camera work. It struck a nice balance between artsy-fartsy-ness of 9.2 and 9.3 and the rest of the season that was very stock Spooks camera work. Stupid location question time: what is the church/catherdral with the white interior Lucas met the Chinese man in? I loved that tracking shot.

Acting - brilliant!

Nicola Walker - someone just hand her her BAFTA now. Pretty please? Soooooo relieved that must suspicions about Ruth were wrong. Seems the best of Ruth is what is destroying Ruth. She may be perfection in her job, but her personal life is a mess!

Ahhh, ultimate betrayal = Harry and the service. All for lurve! Good man. I don't think he is very concerned that he made that choice. I think he did it with his eyes wide open. Harry was skirting the edge in this episode too. That was fun to watch.

The two-dimensional doe-eyed plot device got some redemption. Glad to see that. Nice work her.

Alec White amused me. I dig his insolence. Best line in the episode Alec - Harry: "Its very kind of you to say borderline." *snort!* I hope (and think) he continues. I can see storyline potential. And he had definite "history" with Beth. I don't think they would imply that if he were a one off. Alec gave some perspective to everyone else on the grid who are very personally involved and invested in the outcome.

And Lucas. Lucas, Lucas, Lucas....The line that pulled it all together for me plot-wise was that he has been hiding for so long and that he is just trying to get back to that time where everything seemed right. Roof top showdown with Harry, I found an interesting echo in Lucas telling Harry that Vaughan gave him the chance to be someone and to make a difference and what Blake told Harry in 9.1 that Harry's morals are what holds him back from really making a difference.

Second best line: Tariq to Alec: "Relax!?! I just crashed an entire French mobile network to spam every hotel switchboard in London! Oooohhhhh....is Tariq getting a bit testy? Sure can't take a punch though.