Series 9 Episode 8 discussion

[nothingisasitseems]

I keep watching the final scenes and whereas I was convinced last night that Lucas WAS dead I'm now beginning to think it's not impossible he's alive.

[BravoNine]

(09-11-2010 06:20 PM)molecatcher Wrote:  But in a previous post you got it so right, the fact that the John and Lucas personas were fighting it out ~ to quote you I know Lucas/John jumping off is rather cowardly because he couldn't take going back to prison now he had nothing to live for. But you can always think that he jumped because OUR Lucas is still in there fighting evil John, and that OUR Lucas knew that he had to end this before John hurts anymore people. Think of this as OUR Lucas's sacrifice one last time to save his team and the people who matters. A split personality is just that so you can't blame the actions of one on the other. Vaughn's chilling comment that John had gone to sleep and dreamed he was a hero, then the killer awoke sums up Lucas/John in one sentence.

That is my rationality trying to explain the mess and convoluted storyline that the writers were trying to make. That was my head trying to find some ways to make sense.

The writers never really show any decent reasons, they didn't really even bother trying to explain. If it wasn't for RA acting out all those conflicted moments of John vs. Lucas, I would have never known there was a struggle.

And it's not like they said that Lucas was having a split-personality issue, maybe if they explained it more I would have accepted this crazy storyline.

I can try to make peace with it, or try to rationalize it so that it sounds better in my head. But the simple truth is that the writers disappointed me with this hare-brained storyline that really made no logical sense, and if it wasn't for RA's great acting, I would have long stopped watching.

RA brought the soul into the character of John/Lucas that the writers were never able to do.

[femaleBertieWooster]

I have to say that Richard Armitage totally delivered as John Bateman, body language, cold interior, complete annihilation of all the goodness that was Lucas and of the love we/I had for him.

I can also accept the idea that Lucas gave the Chinese the file to make Harry a traitor/scumbag like himself. Also his using Ruth to show Harry how bad things can go if you do it all for a woman (giving up your own path, integrity, etc.) paralleling his situation with Maya.

I don't mind at all that Albany was unworkable. I suppose that was the twist and did make Lucas' life not just a lie but a waste. I still think it would have been better to have Vaughn deliver his hero/killer line in the finale. That had more shock value than anything in ep 8. Then give the Lucas character some scenes to accept it and integrate it before proceeding with his actions.

I don't mind that Lucas was a traitor. I think I just needed it to be more cohesive, a little more magical in delivery.

I really do have to watch the whole season again and see if I can accept the resolution wholesale. At this point (still in bellyache mode), needed stronger Maya, more details on Vaughn, more on who profited from the Dakar bombing, more on Harry's involvement with Lucas personally. Although people have noted things that have been said about Harry's love and taking Lucas under his wing, I never felt it.

[NightOwl]

(09-11-2010 05:50 PM)Nitrus Wrote:  But if you take the view that that was never Lucas and it was John pretending to be moral and loyal etc then does it make sense? That's how I see it, there's no right or wrong opinion of course, it just makes sense to me that it was always John keeping up the pretense and then not keeping up the pretense rather than Lucas suddenly changing his character traits very rapidly without clear explanation.

That view doesn't work for me. I met Lucas, I was given no reason to believe in series 7 and 8 that he wasn't Lucas. But now, I'm supposed to believe that it was all an act. It gets back to the question posed by others of why should you believe anything about any of the characters. If Lucas could be pretending to be something, so can any of them.

[BravoNine]

(09-11-2010 07:28 PM)NightOwl Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 05:50 PM)Nitrus Wrote:  But if you take the view that that was never Lucas and it was John pretending to be moral and loyal etc then does it make sense? That's how I see it, there's no right or wrong opinion of course, it just makes sense to me that it was always John keeping up the pretense and then not keeping up the pretense rather than Lucas suddenly changing his character traits very rapidly without clear explanation.

That view doesn't work for me. I met Lucas, I was given no reason to believe in series 7 and 8 that he wasn't Lucas. But now, I'm supposed to believe that it was all an act. It gets back to the question posed by others of why should you believe anything about any of the characters. If Lucas could be pretending to be something, so can any of them.

Yup! Agreed!!

Me thinks Tariq is a axe murderer! It's the quiet ones you always have to watch out for! And he's been getting more grumpy and testy lately! I think his evil side is emerging! He will go on a killing spree soon!

[Lomoto]

Thank God this current series is over, it must rank as the worst Series made.
The last two episodes were total guff with huge holes in the plot.
.Just hope Series 10 returns to the old form I have admired in the past

[blueeyes]

(09-11-2010 05:49 PM)Onion Terror Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 05:14 PM)Beatriz Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 02:04 AM)tyme4t Wrote:  Well Well Well so that was 9.8! Mixed feelings....
Things I was a bit disappointed by:
No Malcolm / the lack of twists / the Chinese agents from earlier in series - where were they ? / Alec White character - ok I admit I was hoping that it was going to be Tom Quinn

I also thought Tom Quinn was going to make an appearance, haha naive I know...

Hey, glad I'm not alone! As soon as Harry told the Home Sec that he would be brining in a specialist to track down Lucas, for some reason I was convinced we'd see Tom again. Particularly given that a couple of 'older' characters have returned to the show of late.

Count me in as one of the naive ones too , thought immediately of Tom Quinn when Harry said he was fetching a specialist in . Now that would have made my night !

[AnnMarie]

(09-11-2010 05:00 PM)loladom Wrote:  Maya was the catalyst in that she represented John when he was still 'good' before Vaughn's influence, before the battle. She was his vehicle to go back to an innocent and right time. But she, as a person was really irrelevant to the real battle. It was all Vaughn v Harry if you notice the voice overs. John v Lucas.

I don't know if I agree with the "innocent and right time" statement. If I recall (I can't yet bear rewatching this season) didn't John say he had run drugs and shady things while in University or something. I don't know when the "innocent and right time " would have been. It seems there was always something dodgy he was into.

[BravoNine]

(09-11-2010 08:45 PM)blueeyes Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 05:49 PM)Onion Terror Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 05:14 PM)Beatriz Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 02:04 AM)tyme4t Wrote:  Well Well Well so that was 9.8! Mixed feelings....
Things I was a bit disappointed by:
No Malcolm / the lack of twists / the Chinese agents from earlier in series - where were they ? / Alec White character - ok I admit I was hoping that it was going to be Tom Quinn

I also thought Tom Quinn was going to make an appearance, haha naive I know...

Hey, glad I'm not alone! As soon as Harry told the Home Sec that he would be brining in a specialist to track down Lucas, for some reason I was convinced we'd see Tom again. Particularly given that a couple of 'older' characters have returned to the show of late.

Count me in as one of the naive ones too , thought immediately of Tom Quinn when Harry said he was fetching a specialist in . Now that would have made my night !

If I didn't knew that the Alec character was coming or that Harry wanted someone who wasn't close to this case, I would have thought Tom Quinn too! In fact, I still wish we had gotten Tom back!

--------------

Oh and AnnMarie, they never really specify when Maya and Lucas timeline was, but my guess is that maybe Maya and Lucas were at university together before John ran off to Dakar and got stuck.

And also, I sent ya a PM, don't know if you got it!

[elisabet]

I find it interesting that the ''killer'' John, who was declared to be ''awake now'' by Vaughn last episode actually did not kill anybody in this episode. His whole planning seemed to be hinging on the fact that they now thought the worst of him, while actually it was all smoke and mirrors. The guy running away should not have been killed for running away. If they were going to bring Lucas/John in, surely the shot would not have been meant to kill? Ruth was merely drugged. The bomb was not real, only a decoy. And Harry did not get killed either.

In this episode all the killing seems to be done by MI5 cum suis (the guy that ran, Maya, and in the end, Lucas, by the fact that Maya got killed and by the mere fact that you could argue that Harry had betrayed him repeatedly, first by not getting him back from Russia in a decent amount of time, and later by never giving him the trust that he craved and needed. Not even this series; you felt that Harry held back his trust, even if he extended his hand and said: sure I trust you. He did not ring true. John/Lucas had nothing more to live for. (I am also wondering why Harry gives up Albany to save Ruth, but not to save John/Lucas, since he knows that it is a dud. Another betrayal, that John/Lucas realizes when they are on the phone right after the drop.) Harry is a mega manipulator.

I am also wondering about the flashbacks. You see them in this episode, but I can't really envision Lucas having had sweet dreams during the past series. What if they only now show how damaged he was, and if he had been battling this all along since Russia? I know I have read comments on earlier series on how strange it was that he was able to pick things up like that right after he got retrieved. That would have been a heck of a punishment of John. In the previous series you really never got a feel for what went on in Lucas head. Maybe seeing the picture of Maya reminded him of a time when he was whole, and he was just too tired to keep fighting those memories and flashbacks, and started to lose it. In a similar yet different way from Ruth he is dead inside. They are both damaged, and I think that that accounts for some of the chemistry in their scenes together. I think that in a way she comes closer to him during those scenes than anyone in the 3 series. But Ruth has someone who trusts her, and will go all the way for her, while Lucas has no one. That can make a difference. I was always touched by the loneliness that he exuded.

John was young and foolish, and open for manipulation. he did horrible things. Then he became Lucas, and I think it rings true that he tried to atone for the crimes that John had done. Seeing the picture of Maya opened Pandora’s box. But in the end I think he became Lucas again, simply because he did not plan to kill anyone, and wanted to outsmart MI5 (and boy, did he ever, and if Maya hadn’t been there he would have gotten away with it because he ran circles around them). And yes, after all the betrayals that John/Lucas felt that Harry has put him through, he tried to frame him for giving up Albany. In fact, in the eyes of John/Lucas Harry gives up Albany for Ruth, like he wanted to give up Albany for Maya, so how is that different? Harry knows it is a dud, but John/Lucas did not until the end.
So for me, this series ended with Lucas.