Series 9 Episode 8 discussion

[Tosca]

Am I missing something here - why did Lucas give Albany to the Chinese after Maya had been killed? What was the point anymore??

Loved the Lucas/Ruth scenes - moving and terrifying in equal measure (actually perhaps more terrifying than moving as I watched this after my own dose of Fentanyl and anaesthetic drip earlier in the day.)

Alec is definitely NOT the new Lucas.

The dream is over....

[tyme4t]

THANK YOU - So glad I wasn't alone in hoping it was Tom in the chair when Alec's character was introduced!! LOL

Thank you also for the differing views & the important reminder that this is only a TV show
No actual agents/actors were harmed in the filming of this series! Having said that....I continue to speak as if this actually matters (and just very thankful you are all here to listen - even if you disagree!)

This ep still does not explain why it took so long for Harry to get Lucas back from Russia! It wasn't addressed in 9.7 during their showdown or this week. That is a big part that is missing from this series. Also I would have liked to have seen more of the John & Maya relationship from uni days...maybe that would help me understand more this drive John had to be with her again - this still doesn't really explain why it took 15 years and a photo to remember - yah yah I know John was in "deep" cover as Lucas....but love is a powerful emotion - look what it made Harry do...

Still a [spooks] fan...

[loladom]

(09-11-2010 10:57 PM)Tosca Wrote:  Am I missing something here - why did Lucas give Albany to the Chinese after Maya had been killed? What was the point anymore??

I wondered that too, but on second viewing -on the roof scene, Lucas told Harry he was a traitor for giving away Albany, 'a traitor like me' I believe he said. Thus making them the same in his fragile mind. And they both supposedly did what they did for a woman. At this point, with Maya dead IMO he wanted revenge by bringing Harry and his reputation down too. Even if he'd have shot Harry, Harry would have died in disgrace. By discrediting Harry, he was vindicating himself as in, see we're all capable of it.

[BravoNine]

(09-11-2010 11:52 PM)tyme4t Wrote:  THANK YOU - So glad I wasn't alone in hoping it was Tom in the chair when Alec's character was introduced!! LOL

Oh how I would have loved it if it was Tom, I'd be squealing! Instead pompous Alec showed up and was all annoying!

(09-11-2010 11:52 PM)tyme4t Wrote:  Thank you also for the differing views & the important reminder that this is only a TV show
No actual agents/actors were harmed in the filming of this series! Having said that....I continue to speak as if this actually matters (and just very thankful you are all here to listen - even if you disagree!)

*GASP* It's only a TV show? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

(09-11-2010 11:52 PM)tyme4t Wrote:  This ep still does not explain why it took so long for Harry to get Lucas back from Russia! It wasn't addressed in 9.7 during their showdown or this week. That is a big part that is missing from this series.

Lucas and Harry had such an interesting dynamic, and I had hoped for the longest time that they would take a storyline to explore their relationship. Go back to the old days. Instead I got a storyline about crazy John...EEEKKK! And they ruined Lucas and Harry's bond!!

(09-11-2010 11:52 PM)tyme4t Wrote:  Also I would have liked to have seen more of the John & Maya relationship from uni days...maybe that would help me understand more this drive John had to be with her again - this still doesn't really explain why it took 15 years and a photo to remember - yah yah I know John was in "deep" cover as Lucas....but love is a powerful emotion - look what it made Harry do...

I think if the writers focused more on creating the relationship between Maya and Lucas, more than just them saying they love each other or other characters saying they love each other, if the writers would just show it more, maybe delve deeper into their great love and relationship, I would have been able to accept the storyline more. Instead I got a love interest that had the ability to be about as intriguing as a sponge.

Hard to believe that months ago I was so excited to see what storylines and intrigues would happen and so happy, now I'm upset and feels like I've been sucker-punched in the gut.

[Quill]

Coming a little late to the party, but anyway...

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the Spooks finale. I think it was gripping, ambitious and clever to a fault. I was at the edge of my seat for most of the season. I never theorized so much over its storyline and I have watched Spooks from the beginning. The running theme of trust and betrayal was a great idea and a very clever way to set up a possible last season of the show. Having Harry betraying his own moral code to save Ruth feels a bit like the death of Section D.

But the argument for Lucas double life wasn't completely persuasive. To me, the stone on its path was Lucas time in the Russian prison. If he hadn't been tested this way, I could buy that he longed for a time when his life was simpler and that is what Maya would represent. Or if he was turned by another agency or used to bring Harry's downfall by someone dropping hints that Harry actually let him rot on that place, that would be plausible.

So, that's when the writers got away too clever. Spooks fans are used to what seems like plot holes that are neatly wrapped by a fantastic twist at the end. And theorize we all did. And they surprised us with a very simple, linear storyline, no plot holes explained. I can rationalize a bunch of little gaps, like the Chinese agents having Lucas photo at the end of episode 4 (they were told Lucas was a potential asset and had orders to not kill him; the photo was for identification), but I can't buy him being duplicitous BEFORE his stint in Russia. There is no way he would be able to keep his lie that long.

The acting was superb and held the whole thing together, no doubt. It was a great showcase for RA and NW. But this story arc could had been soooo much better. I feel a bit betrayed, to be honest.

[femaleBertieWooster]

(09-11-2010 10:26 PM)elisabet Wrote:  (I am also wondering why Harry gives up Albany to save Ruth, but not to save John/Lucas, since he knows that it is a dud. Another betrayal, that John/Lucas realizes when they are on the phone right after the drop.) Harry is a mega manipulator.

Excellent point, as well as your others.

[Chocolatepony]

(10-11-2010 01:29 AM)Quill Wrote:  Coming a little late to the party, but anyway...

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the Spooks finale. I think it was gripping, ambitious and clever to a fault. I was at the edge of my seat for most of the season. I never theorized so much over its storyline and I have watched Spooks from the beginning. The running theme of trust and betrayal was a great idea and a very clever way to set up a possible last season of the show. Having Harry betraying his own moral code to save Ruth feels a bit like the death of Section D.

But the argument for Lucas double life wasn't completely persuasive. To me, the stone on its path was Lucas time in the Russian prison. If he hadn't been tested this way, I could buy that he longed for a time when his life was simpler and that is what Maya would represent. Or if he was turned by another agency or used to bring Harry's downfall by someone dropping hints that Harry actually let him rot on that place, that would be plausible.

So, that's when the writers got away too clever. Spooks fans are used to what seems like plot holes that are neatly wrapped by a fantastic twist at the end. And theorize we all did. And they surprised us with a very simple, linear storyline, no plot holes explained. I can rationalize a bunch of little gaps, like the Chinese agents having Lucas photo at the end of episode 4 (they were told Lucas was a potential asset and had orders to not kill him; the photo was for identification), but I can't buy him being duplicitous BEFORE his stint in Russia. There is no way he would be able to keep his lie that long.

The acting was superb and held the whole thing together, no doubt. It was a great showcase for RA and NW. But this story arc could had been soooo much better. I feel a bit betrayed, to be honest.

My feelings exactly! This season had me conjuring all manner of possible outcomes and explanations for the many unsolved questions. But in the end a very linear plot. So after Dacca John spent ?5 years as Lucas North married to Elisabeta, then 8 years in a Russian prison without revealing his true identity, followed by ?2 years at Thames House before the whole Albany affair. That adds up to the 15 years he'd been away from Maya. A chronic lier he may have been but he was undoubtedly a brilliant spook for it!

RIP Lucas North

[lwhite53]

Not at all a satisfying ep, imo. I've thought about it for 24 hours now and the only thing I can say is . . . I'm disappointed. There were no revelations, no epiphanies, no emotional subtext that we didn't already know from earlier eps. Oh, except maybe that Albany was a fake. So what?

Don't get me wrong -- the acting in this ep (as well as the whole series) was outstanding. PF, NW and RA were just superb and, trust me, it's extraordinarily difficult to make something this convoluted seem realistic, especially when the Grand Canyon would fit comfortably into the plot holes. But I found the writing, in general, wanting and even the best actors can't save a bad script. I cringed when Lucas told Harry that he was "bad" before he joined MI5 -- how RA ever delivered that line with a straight face I'll never know! Several people have already said they thought the writers were "lazy" -- I wholeheartedly agree.

The high points, for me, were the interpersonal scenes -- between Harry and Ruth, Ruth and Lucas, and Lucas and Harry. However, and to my eternal unhappiness, we never got the real nitty gritty Lucas/Harry scene, the one where they hashed out Lucas' 8 years in Russia, how he got there and why it took so long to get him back. I've waited three years for that discussion and I guess now I'll never get it. What a let down!

An unfortunate and senseless end for Lucas (and nowhere near what RA should have gotten) and a flat ending for a series that started with such promise. I think the writers really killed this one with an idea they tried way too hard to make work. They force fed a plot that never really made rational sense and the more they tried to fix it, the more confused it became.

Ridiculous, yes. Spooks, no way.

[Silktie]

I don't find it so difficult to believe that Lucas/John's good and bad sides have always been there. Just because someone is a criminal/killer, it doesn't mean they don't have a great capacity to love and to be loyal to a group that they see as their "family". There are many examples of terrible people (think Mafia / gang members, who are "bad" but who would rather die than betray their fellow members. I can fanwank that this is what John did all those years in the Russian prison, and why he is willing to risk his life to save other team members once he's back.

I also don't agree with those who want to blame Harry for Lucas' situation. Harry didn't leave Lucas in Russia for eight years just because he couldn't be bothered to get him back. When a country captures a major asset of another country, they're not going to give him up until they're satisfied that they've gotten everything they possibly could from him. It took eight years because the Russians were unwilling to trade him back before then. Ros does tell Lucas in season 7 that Harry sweated blood to get him back. And about Harry's lack of trust in Lucas: when Lucas returns from Russia, Harry tells him that he does trust him, but that that is his mistake. Harry knows that no-one comes back from something like that undamaged, and to just trust Lucas on his say-so would have been a shirking of his responsibility from Harry.

As for his reticence in giving Lucas his full trust and clearance as Section Chief, let's not forget that when Lucas asked for that trust, his main motivation was to get high enough clearance to access Vaughn's files. So neither Lucas or Harry went into that situation with pure motivations.

In the end, it comes down to this for me: Lucas made his own choices - in Dakar, he did not do what he did because someone forced him into it, he did it because it made him feel like somebody. He chose to continue with his fake life in MI5 because it gave him a chance to atone for what he did, perhaps, or because once again, it made him feel like he was somebody. When Vaughn came back into his life, he chose not to come clean. After Maya died, he chose to still give Albany to the Chinese, even though he knew what its horrible potential was.

And I'm not sure when Harry was supposed to have given up Albany to save Lucas? By the time Harry became aware that the whole thing was about Albany, Lucas put in place his plan to kidnap Ruth, and from then on it became a choice between Ruth, who is after all still a loyal MI5 member, and Lucas, who had gone off the deep end by then.

[BravoNine]

Well honestly, I've said all I can say about my feelings on this series, everything I wanted from this series, even a little tiny ounce of it that I wished for, I didn't get.

Instead, I got Lucas gone crazy and jumping off buildings. People can try to rationalize it to me all they want, heck, I can even try to rationalize to myself all I want, but it'll never take away that feeling of major disappointment nor will it take away the void left in my heart.

Lucas North had so much potential as a character, so much promise, so many interesting back-stories they could have fleshed out, so many plausible storylines they could have taken to shown he was broken and damaged, yet they chose to run with a storyline that destroyed his best quality of loyalty to his team and then his dignity.

And honestly, it's ruined my enjoyment of the last 2 series, because now every time I see Lucas, all I will think about is how it's just all lies and pretend, that he didn't care, that it was all for Maya.

I'm sorry but there are things that I can never fanwank myself into believing. Unfortunately, this storyline was filled with a boatload of them.

Was I totally hooked and gripped by the episodes? Yes I was, there was never any doubt about it. But even my own enjoyment and excitement level can't cover the disappointment I experienced.

I've saw a lot of my favorite characters exit over the years on so many different shows, some brilliant, some not the best one ever, and some was rather silly but still understandable, but THIS, this was the worst and most insulting storyline I have ever endured.

Spooks owes me health hazard pay! I've been so worried sick about Lucas's storyline and so upset by it that I've gotten sick TWICE now! When I connect to a character, he or she is like family to me, I put my heart and soul on the line with this character, and what the writers did with Lucas was tear apart everything I ever loved about him, left my heart in broken pieces, and stomped all over it for fun. For that, I do not appreciate it at all.

I guess the only hollow consolation I can convince myself to believe is that the real Lucas North came back in those last moments on that roof with Harry and that he sacrificed himself to end the monster that is John and protect his team from harm.

After watching what his end came to be, I wished that he had died in that Russian jail, or died when he went to Moscow to clear Harry's name, or died from that bullet he received escaping the kill squad, or died when Sarah was going to execute him, or died in that bomb blast that killed Ros, at least then I won't have to watch him turn into this monster that I don't even recognize.

I guess Lucas is the first Spook to fight so hard to stay loyal, fight so hard to make things right, and end up dying in disgrace.