Series 9 Episode 8 discussion

[Kirayuki]

Am i he only person who thought that this series was perfectly good entertainment? I was satisfied with it. The ending left me feeling weird but it was a really good episode and a good overall series.

I do have a few quibbles with small plot holes but to be perfectly honest i don't really want to let them eat me up.

It was (for me at least) one of the best series i've seen in a while.

And i didn't think Lucas' bow out was poorly done or too rushed in the episode. We haven't had a suicide before so that's a decent change. His reasons for doing so were clear enough and it wasn't an explosion (of which i think we've seen way too many recently).

I was under the impression Lucas gave the Chinese Albany despite Maya's death as a) Payback for her death as he blamed Harry, b) he had nothing to loose anymore and c) Maya died for Albany and so he wanted to continue what he was doing. (Hence the whole "She died for nothing?" line).

[BravoNine]

Oh it was good entertainment on the shocking, exciting, heart-pounding, scaring-the-crap-out-of-me level, no doubt about it. It was great in that sense.

It was just the logic that fell apart for me. I've been trying to rationalize it in my head to try and convince myself that I was just being stupid and silly to believe in Lucas so much, that he was just lying and I was too blind to see it, but my heart won't believe that. It's a struggle for me, it's just too hard.

And honestly, seeing who Lucas became, it just ruins for me what I loved about Series 7 and 8, how am I going to go back to those episodes and see the same good Lucas who came through for his team? Was it all just lies and pretend or did he really became Lucas North that he forgot John Bateman and had an identity crisis?

Anyways, what's done is done, and any amount of my anger or complaining isn't gonna change what happened, so I guess I will just have to suck it up and deal with it.

By the way, Kirayuki, really LOVE your banner! That Lucas/Ruth scene had to be one of my favs! I wonder if RA and NW had great fun filming together, because they're not usually sharing scenes alone or in that close proximity, that must have been different and fun!

It would be interesting to see if the DVD boxset contains commentaries for these episodes because I sure would like to hear the reasons for this storyline, maybe if I hear the writers' opinions, that may make sense to me.

Part of me wonders when Harry said to Lucas that he could still help Lucas, that after Lucas's years of service, he owes him. Was he giving Lucas a chance to escape or is he just saying that he could settle a reduced prison sentence for Lucas? Surely they both know that Lucas would never make it in prison. He made it through in Russia because he had a home and a family to fight for, but now all that is gone, if he goes to prison on British soil, he knows he can never make it back because there is no home to fight for.

Now I really wanna see bloopers for Spooks, it may just take away some of the hurt I've been feeling, I need something happy and fun now!

[HellsBells]

A really light point about this episode....why did Lucas have to take his shirt off to give Maya a cuddle? Okay, I'm not really complaining, but this just seemed like 'let's give the audience one last look at that body' scene which was unnecessary. I DON'T watch Spooks just so I can see Lucas half naked (no really I don't!). And then PF fans get to miss out on the swapping clothes scene. Nice of Lucas get Harry something appropriate that fitted, no jeans and T-shirt for Harry!

BravoNine, it is incredible your thoughts on this episode mirror mine completely....and that is so spooky!!!!

[BravoNine]

(10-11-2010 12:44 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  A really light point about this episode....why did Lucas have to take his shirt off to give Maya a cuddle? Okay, I'm not really complaining, but this just seemed like 'let's give the audience one last look at that body' scene which was unnecessary. I DON'T watch Spooks just so I can see Lucas half naked (no really I don't!). And then PF fans get to miss out on the swapping clothes scene. Nice of Lucas get Harry something appropriate that fitted, no jeans and T-shirt for Harry!

Hmmmm that was rather strange! But he did look nice so I guess I can't really complain....

Forget jeans and t-shirt, I'm more intrigued that Lucas knew Harry's clothing size.....I mean....I know they were close, I knew Lucas joked that he and Harry were a "sexual thing"....but really? They were THAT close? LOL just what are the writers trying to insinuate?

Oh great, now they made my slash side of the brain wake up and give birth to a million plot bunnies....

(10-11-2010 12:44 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  BravoNine, it is incredible your thoughts on this episode mirror mine completely....and that is so spooky!!!!

LOL! Maybe I'm an evil mind-reader, who knows, I am very strange like that!

Oh I LOVE LOVE LOVE that sig you have, damn it I'm crying again!

How am I ever gonna forgive the writers for destroying Lucas/Harry's bond......

Damn the writers for not putting PF and RA on screen together more, those two have great chemistry and their characters had so much more potential storylines to show!

[tyme4t]

(10-11-2010 12:44 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  A really light point about this episode....why did Lucas have to take his shirt off to give Maya a cuddle? Okay, I'm not really complaining, but this just seemed like 'let's give the audience one last look at that body' scene which was unnecessary. I DON'T watch Spooks just so I can see Lucas half naked (no really I don't!). And then PF fans get to miss out on the swapping clothes scene. Nice of Lucas get Harry something appropriate that fitted, no jeans and T-shirt for Harry!

HB - I actually have thought about the final no shirt scene too - was it a visual reminder maybe to the audience of the 8 years that Lucas/John spent in the Russian prison? Probably not...
Probably just a last hurrah for RA fans (which I am one and enjoy his "body" of work ) but I am first and foremost a [spooks] fan and felt it was unnecessary. And BTW - how did he explain those tats to Maya??? "Hey baby I kinda went through a Russian phase & isn't William Blake kinda cool?" but I digress...

And when Harry was told to undress I think it should have been a boiler suit that Lucas/John made him put on

[Kirayuki]

(10-11-2010 12:30 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  By the way, Kirayuki, really LOVE your banner! That Lucas/Ruth scene had to be one of my favs! I wonder if RA and NW had great fun filming together, because they're not usually sharing scenes alone or in that close proximity, that must have been different and fun!

Thankyou! I only got 4hrs sleep last night due to making that so i'm glad you like it. I just had to do it before i forgot!

That scene really stood out to me as pivotal. It pointed out how good Ruth was at her job and i think that's needed after two episodes of her being in a tight spot.

I also thought it was important as it was after all Ruth who did find out in the end. She thought something was wrong and kept tabs on him. Leading to his broken cover.

And i agree. Seeing them work together sort of makes me wish we saw a bit more of this. They worked so well together i was amazed!
(And i have to say that RA's delivery of that line was absolutely spot on).

When he sedated her was also very well played. Congrats to both of them.

[BravoNine]

(10-11-2010 01:08 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  

(10-11-2010 12:30 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  By the way, Kirayuki, really LOVE your banner! That Lucas/Ruth scene had to be one of my favs! I wonder if RA and NW had great fun filming together, because they're not usually sharing scenes alone or in that close proximity, that must have been different and fun!

Thankyou! I only got 4hrs sleep last night due to making that so i'm glad you like it. I just had to do it before i forgot!

That scene really stood out to me as pivotal. It pointed out how good Ruth was at her job and i think that's needed after two episodes of her being in a tight spot.

I also thought it was important as it was after all Ruth who did find out in the end. She thought something was wrong and kept tabs on him. Leading to his broken cover.

And i agree. Seeing them work together sort of makes me wish we saw a bit more of this. They worked so well together i was amazed!
(And i have to say that RA's delivery of that line was absolutely spot on).

RA and NW does shine very well together, that scene wouldn't have worked if those two hadn't been so phenomenal together, their chemistry is definitely there. It's a shame that it has to end, I was looking forward to more.

See if Lucas and Maya had any kind of chemistry and dynamic like that, maybe I would have bought that Lucas would do it for Maya and this big great love.

I wonder if filming that scene that poor RA was probably scared of accidently hurting NW if he was being too strong, I mean, RA is a big guy but he's rather big softie had heart, like a teddy bear.

I think a part of Ruth was probably heart-broken as well and probably did feel sorry for what Lucas became, I mean, it can't be easy for her to see someone who she probably did respect and admire turn down this broken path, it must have hurt her.

And gosh, Lucas's tone of voice in that scene, I swear it sounds like a kid who's afraid that his mother's found out about all the dark dirty things he had done. He sounds like a lost little boy who was afraid to disappoint his mom.

Honestly I think what's most heart-breaking for me is that this team is such a close family with Harry being the dad, Ruth being the mom, Lucas being the big brother, and the others being the little ones. Just seeing that family break up from the inside, to see one of their own whom they love turn so far down the dark path, that must have cut deep no matter how much they try to deny it.

[dalia]

Quote:And honestly, seeing who Lucas became, it just ruins for me what I loved about Series 7 and 8, how am I going to go back to those episodes and see the same good Lucas who came through for his team? Was it all just lies and pretend or did he really became Lucas North that he forgot John Bateman and had an identity crisis?

I mean that it wasn´t all lies at all. I understand it so that when he adopted the identity of Lucas North it was because he wanted to start again, that he wasn´t satifsfait with what he did and with his previous life. He wasn´t a bad person, someone like Vaughan, he was just young, adventurous, irresponsible, he did a stupid thing and then he met a wrong person (Vaughan). I mean by adopting the identity of Lucas he choose a quite difficult way for a new life, not an easy and comfortable one. And he "found himself" in it. He was a person with many talents which could be used to become a criminal and also to become a hero. He had both potentials, but he met Vaughan first and Harry later, unfortunatelly... I mean he did all he did as Lucas North sincerelly, not to pretend something. He just used this "new life" to evolve some part of his personality and he became Lucas North, not the "original" one, but "his" one. Lucas North was the better part of John Bateman, that what he would have become if he did make other choices in his youth. Well, I´m not sure if I expressed myself good, I hope so...

[BravoNine]

I wish the writers had made it clearer, but all that logic seems to have gotten convoluted under Lucas/John's love of Maya. I wished they just dropped Maya all together and focused on his two lives and the home desired with MI5.

I think when we make our own interpretations, they actually make sense, but when I watch the episodes again, that logic and common sense gets swept under the rug and becomes murky with how they did the writing and dialog, some scenes worked, others just didn't.

But I can believe that Lucas North lived in John Bateman, and that at the end of the road, Lucas made the sacrifice to end this mess and protect his people. If I can hold onto that belief, then this ending isn't so stupid and sad. Then I can believe in Series 7 and 8 again, then I can believe that when it counted Lucas still came through and chose to end himself rather than the people he cares about.

Maybe this would have gone easier if the writers just say that he has split-personality issues or something.....hmmmmm

[Tea Lady]

(10-11-2010 07:40 AM)Kazters Wrote:  I'm glad it looks like we have Alex who has the wit of ros and Adam in telling Harry what they think which Lucas was missing.

I liked this ep until the roof it just felt rushed

I agree with what you say about the roof ending Kazters. As for Alec though, I didn't take to him at all. In saying that, to have a Section Chief that none of the team actually like, would be a new twist. As we got some back story to Alec, I do worry he may be back in S10. You do wonder though, if Harry is being investigated and Alec helped him trade Albany, in a way, would MI5 really allow Harry to hire him again? Not sure about that. Also he was internal affairs, not a field officer.

(10-11-2010 12:18 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  Am i he only person who thought that this series was perfectly good entertainment? I was satisfied with it. The ending left me feeling weird but it was a really good episode and a good overall series.

It was (for me at least) one of the best series i've seen in a while.

I quite agree Kirayuki. I really liked this series. The ending left me feeling weird but that's probably because it was sad to see Lucas die. Also, for me, the fact that H/R never got together and all my hopes were dashed for another year, left me a little flat as well. I don't think I've ever walked away from a last Spooks episode, in a "happy" mood.

(10-11-2010 12:44 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  And then PF fans get to miss out on the swapping clothes scene. Nice of Lucas get Harry something appropriate that fitted, no jeans and T-shirt for Harry!

Yes, thank you Lucas for giving us the "Harry in an open neck blue shirt scene." Does he still have the tapes of him stripping? I wonder if Harry thought at that time, "I bloody well hope Ruth isn't watching this."