Series 9 DVD Release

[BoHenley]

Watchstrap, explain to him you're doing covert research for the Government...

[binkie]

(02-03-2011 06:33 PM)Byatil Wrote:  My DVD finally arrived today! Just watched "The Downfall of Lucas North"...

Series The Downfall of Lucas North (S9 DVD Extra) Spoiler: show

I'm still not convinced. I can suspend my disbelief to the point where John Bateman is masquerading as Lucas North; but it still makes absolutely no sense within the overall plot. In terms of his character, I can just about believe it. The links they made with some of his tattoos were interesting ones (however... they could also have been linked to the fact Lucas didn't want to lose "himself" whilst he was in prison), but it's slightly problematic that most Spooks viewers wouldn't realise the imagery behind some of his tattoos, and equally, some of his tattoos aren't even visible! If, somehow, they could have explained how John managed to:
- Pretend to be Lucas North for 15 years
- Infiltrate MI5
- Successfully masquerade under an entirely new identity
- Have a bizarre love interest in a woman he knew 15 years ago, which he was willing to die/kill for
- Avoid revealing any information which might suggest he wasn't who he said he was (...for 15 years. Whilst being tortured at some points.)

Then I might just be able to believe the plot. As it stands... it still makes no sense, and I'm still angry!

I do, however, get the feeling a lot of information was withheld from the audience in terms of the John/Maya/Vaughn relationships.

I was really hoping this feature might explain how John managed to get away with pretending to be Lucas for so long, but it's just left me feeling cheated. The producer (or writer? I can't remember what he did rofl) on the feature said something along the lines of "I hope people watch Lucas over the course of the series and think "Wow, it could all have been so different if only he had stayed with Maya", and "The great thing about S9 is that it includes a classic love story". Just... argh! Maybe if there was a viable reason for Lucas to give a damn about Maya, I might have cared more. Maybe if they actually had a "passionate relationship" (as is claimed on the feature) I might have found it all a bit more believable. I just don't understand! Why doesn't it make any sense?!

Anyway, I'll reserve judgement on the series plot-holes until I've watched the entire thing through again and mercilessly questioned everything. I'm looking forward to the NW commentary and interview at least!

Okay, so, not wishing to undo all the hard work of your spoiler-tastic efforts(!): if I buy this DVD will I be at all placated, or will I just be cross and £30 down?

[Byatil]

(03-03-2011 10:21 PM)binkie Wrote:  

(02-03-2011 06:33 PM)Byatil Wrote:  My DVD finally arrived today! Just watched "The Downfall of Lucas North"...

Series The Downfall of Lucas North (S9 DVD Extra) Spoiler: show

I'm still not convinced. I can suspend my disbelief to the point where John Bateman is masquerading as Lucas North; but it still makes absolutely no sense within the overall plot. In terms of his character, I can just about believe it. The links they made with some of his tattoos were interesting ones (however... they could also have been linked to the fact Lucas didn't want to lose "himself" whilst he was in prison), but it's slightly problematic that most Spooks viewers wouldn't realise the imagery behind some of his tattoos, and equally, some of his tattoos aren't even visible! If, somehow, they could have explained how John managed to:
- Pretend to be Lucas North for 15 years
- Infiltrate MI5
- Successfully masquerade under an entirely new identity
- Have a bizarre love interest in a woman he knew 15 years ago, which he was willing to die/kill for
- Avoid revealing any information which might suggest he wasn't who he said he was (...for 15 years. Whilst being tortured at some points.)

Then I might just be able to believe the plot. As it stands... it still makes no sense, and I'm still angry!

I do, however, get the feeling a lot of information was withheld from the audience in terms of the John/Maya/Vaughn relationships.

I was really hoping this feature might explain how John managed to get away with pretending to be Lucas for so long, but it's just left me feeling cheated. The producer (or writer? I can't remember what he did rofl) on the feature said something along the lines of "I hope people watch Lucas over the course of the series and think "Wow, it could all have been so different if only he had stayed with Maya", and "The great thing about S9 is that it includes a classic love story". Just... argh! Maybe if there was a viable reason for Lucas to give a damn about Maya, I might have cared more. Maybe if they actually had a "passionate relationship" (as is claimed on the feature) I might have found it all a bit more believable. I just don't understand! Why doesn't it make any sense?!

Anyway, I'll reserve judgement on the series plot-holes until I've watched the entire thing through again and mercilessly questioned everything. I'm looking forward to the NW commentary and interview at least!

Okay, so, not wishing to undo all the hard work of your spoiler-tastic efforts(!): if I buy this DVD will I be at all placated, or will I just be cross and £30 down?

Hard to say, really. I think some of the explanations they offer are interesting ones which kind of make sense, however I really get the feeling that RA knew a lot more about what was going on with his character than we did! Some things still don't make much sense, but I think he explains how Lucas-is-John from a psychological view-point quite well. The entire thing is 15 minutes long, but some of it focusses on things like "Which parts of playing Lucas RA enjoyed best" etc... so it isn't all entirely relevant to the question of why Lucas-is-John.

I've yet to watch the other extras so I can't comment on them, I'm afraid

[binkie]

(03-03-2011 10:52 PM)Byatil Wrote:  I really get the feeling that RA knew a lot more about what was going on with his character than we did!

Is this a result of him being better informed from the outset, or him thinking his way around an unanticipated plot development, do you think?

(03-03-2011 10:52 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Some things still don't make much sense, but I think he explains how Lucas-is-John from a psychological view-point quite well.

Really?! In 15 minutes! Good for him

I'm still sort of inclined to continue seething in ignorance of the extras. I can justify this by reference to the fact that I'm not a big DVD collector, rather than admitting it's just sour grapes

[Byatil]

(03-03-2011 11:16 PM)binkie Wrote:  

(03-03-2011 10:52 PM)Byatil Wrote:  I really get the feeling that RA knew a lot more about what was going on with his character than we did!

Is this a result of him being better informed from the outset, or him thinking his way around an unanticipated plot development, do you think?

Probably the latter; I don't think Lucas was ever intended to go down the path he did from S7, but RA seems to have taken on board the fact that Lucas-is-John quite well

(03-03-2011 11:16 PM)binkie Wrote:  

(03-03-2011 10:52 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Some things still don't make much sense, but I think he explains how Lucas-is-John from a psychological view-point quite well.

Really?! In 15 minutes! Good for him

Haha! He still doesn't explain how any of it fits together, but sadly it was not expected of him ;( As far as the believability that Lucas has the capacity to have masqueraded as another man for 15 years, he makes it almost believable! If we ignore the fact Lucas/John was tortured, then it is feasible that he could have buried his 'true persona' for so long (or at least, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief to that point!)
They touch briefly on the fact that Lucas has "never had any successful relationships" and we get some nice montage-esque footage of Elizabeta, Sarah and Maya, but none of it is particularly engaging. I don't know, I'll have to watch it again and see what I think of it the second time round. My initial thoughts after watching it where that it didn't leave me feeling any the wiser as to how Lucas-is-John, but it did manage to get around some of the major issues quite well (apparently the fact Lucas has Blake's "Ancient of Days" on his chest was always meant to symbolise his split-personality; God as the architect mirroring John as the architect etc). It all seemed like a bit of an after-thought though; like they had made links because they had to make links, not because those links were already in place.

Anyway, as I said, I'll watch it again a little more closely and see if anything convincing is actually said. If I have time I'll transcribe it so people aren't forced to spend £30 for 15mins of not-very-revealing footage!

---

I went ahead and transcribed "The Downfall of Lucas North" for anyone who wants to know what was said but doesn't want to buy the DVD/can't get the DVD Some might say I have far too much time on my hands...

Series 9 (DVD extra) The Downfall of Lucas North Spoiler: show

Key
NW = Nicola Walker
SL = Shazad Latif
MB = Max Brown
PF = Peter Firth
EP = Executive Producer (Andrew Woodhead)
RA = Richard Armitage
LR = Laila Rouass
IG = Iain Glen
SM = Sophia Myles

NW: Step forward the real Lucas North... yeah, I mean, no-one expected that, this is the first time that you've had the lead Spook actually not be who he appears to be.
SL: Yeah, all the relationships build up and all the things you've done together throughout the series... it's brilliant yeah because you realise later that all those things... that he was playing a character the whole time.
MB: He's killed this guy "Lucas North", he's taken over his identity, he's infiltrated the MI5, he's become someone that he wants to be, but, you know, he's got this horrible background, so he's been running from the past.
NW: He's totally torn as well because he adores Harry. He's tried to become the man that he's masquerading as; he's tried to make good.
PF: Yes, it's reveal after reveal really. It's a Mille-feuille of deception.
EP: Adam's exit was very much... it all happened in one episode, bang bang bang bang bang, Adam, heroic, saving the day; oh my God, didn't survive. Whereas Lucas' downfall is over the eight hours of the series.
RA: This series, for me, is about peeling back Lucas North and finding John Bateman again. Uh, and what Lucas actually finds is not that man that he was, it's, uh... there's a character in episode 8 called Alex who describes it as a chimera, and that's really what it is, it's an amalgamation of both of the characters, of somebody new emerging. And that's really, uh, what episode 7 for me is about, the birth of uh, of who he's gonna be in the future.
NW: I'm quite impressed watching Richard unravel him as the episodes going by; really small things he's doing as you watch this character who seems very straight and controlled and contained, just see him breaking down, he's been brilliant at doing that.
RA: John Bateman was a bit of a lazy drop-out I think, and Maya was the worker, she was the studious one, and their relationship was tight, and they really, you know, they were made for each other.
LR: And then John just disappears one day, and it completely rocks her world when she hears that he's dead.
RA: John realised that he wasn't going to be able to support her financially. He kind of got involved with this guy who was uh doing a drugs run, and he saw it an an opportunity to make some extra money. So he goes to Dakar and he gets caught and he gets stranded out there and needs to pay his way back, so he meets this guy "Vaughn". They start running courier jobs for the British Government, one of which turns out to be an embassy bomb. 17 people die, 5 British citizens died.
EP: Vaughn saw something in John Bateman, which he thought could be manipulated, but he also saw something in John Bateman which probably Harry saw in John Bateman/Lucas North in which actually ultimately made a brilliant spy. He was someone who was capable of doing horrendous things and extraordinary things.
RA: Vaughn's kind of the architect but John is the engine driver; he knew what he was doing, um and the creation of Lucas North after the event was very much John's doing.
Interviewer: He brutally murdered Lucas North?
RA: Yeah, I don't think there was any plan, I think he just needed the passport. He had to reinvent himself, he had to hide within the legend of Lucas North. I think he created somebody that he would have wanted to be, someone that he aspired to be, in a way it's quite hard to define, because there is remorse there, there is guilt, but he did what he did, but I think he saw his creation of Lucas North as a way of paying his due in a way. And going to prison for 8 years; I think he feels that he's served his time for killing Lucas North even though he's never been tried in a court of law I think he believes that he's paid back. All his prison tattoos do tie in to the John Bateman situation, the "Gnothi Seauton" (Know thyself), on his arm we have "I hear nothing, I see nothing, I say nothing to nobody" and "While I live, I breathe" on the back of his neck. And on his chest is a William Blake painting which is "Arisen; God is the Architect", so it's all about recreating himself, but at the same time not losing the truth inside.
Interestingly Lucas' relationships have failed, uh he's had this wonderful relationship with Elizabeta, Sarah Caulfield, but the one relationship that he does hang on to, the person that reminds him who John Bateman was is Maya.
LR: Every woman he's probably been with since has been compared to Maya, it's his first love.
IG: His central weakness is his, um, his love for this lady, that in the end causes his downfall.
LR: Vaughn's been very clever, he's been very calculating, um and yeah he's used her to get what he wants and get to Lucas.
IG: He's a psychological baddie, he's sort of, you know, he gets inside Lucas' worst nightmare and manipulates him, he knows his greatest fears, he knows sort of his weaknesses because they've got a shared history.
RA: Vaughn delivers a suitcase with photographs in it; Maya happens to be one of the photographs, and there's this sort of shock reaction to seeing her again.
LR: So of course when he turns up, she's angry because I think she feels completely betrayed by him but there's such a strong attraction, there's such an unspoken understanding between the two of them. It's a very passionate relationship. I don't think she can control it either, which is what scares her.
RA: Suddenly, it's like an awakening, and he, it's like John Bateman starts to kind of wake up and say "Hang on, what about me?" He finally realises that he can't really be Lucas North forever, it's already kind of shattering and crumbling, and he's trying to hang on to that because that's his life, you know, at MI5, that's all he has, really. And it's a strong place to be, it makes him feel good, without that he's a terrorist that would be captured and imprisoned, so he can't be there and he can't be John Bateman either, so he's sort of in limbo, but Maya is the only thing that really feels real.
EP: If in episode 1, Lucas North, after he had got the suitcase from Vaughn had said "Harry, this man's come back from my past and I've never told you this, I did this terrible thing". If he had made that choice then to go to Harry, I think his life could have been very different. And there's been moments all through the series actually, if you look back through the episodes where, okay, he had a choice, still then. He didn't have to go down the road he went down. But for some flaw in his psychology, Lucas North couldn't make those choices.
RA: Vaughn has been blackmailing Lucas to bring him a file called "Albany", which is the "file of all files".
IG: What we see now is a kind of desperate final measure that he's been driven to and I've been pushing him forward every step of the way.
RA: He's here to manipulate Vaughn into giving Maya's location up.
Director: It's a violent scene that happens in the middle of a very um domestic setting with children and mother's and families around, and it's quite an intense piece.
SM: Beth has discovered that he's not exactly who he says he is, so she's come out to kind of tail him.
Director: Beth gets between Lucas and effectively the man who can lead him to the woman he loves, and he has to make a choice. Is he gonna shoot her, or is he not? To me as a director, what I always have to d in scenes where somebody may or may not be hurt is try and persuade the audience that it's going to happen. And then somewhere out of that you can find the moment when it doesn't happen, but you have to get in to the right zone where you believe it is going to happen for the scene to actually work.
RA: Lucas uses Ruth as leverage to get Harry to deliver Albany so that he can deliver Albany to Vaughn and get Maya back.
NW: She has quite a ride of it, in the second half of the series.
RA: Poor, beautiful, tragic Ruth *laughs*
NW: To think of Ruth Evershed sitting there and pondering whether or not she could put a glass in to Lucas' neck is a completely bizarre thought.
RA: He knows deep down inside "I will never be able to hurt Ruth", but he has to appear to do it, and likewise over the phone to Harry. You know all of the threats, Lucas... LucasJohn sets up a bomb uh which turns out to be a fake bomb because it's all about leverage, it's all about manipulation. It's about what is real, what seems to be real, and what you believe to be real.
EP: There's such a game of bluff, whose gonna blink first between Harry and Lucas North?
RA: Harry knows that Albany isn't real, so he knows what he's delivering to Lucas - he can deliver it, because it doesn't exist.
EP: Does he go up there to kill Harry? I think it's great that we all believe that, but does he go up there to ask for Harry's forgiveness? Or does he go up there to understand what's... who he is anymore? Or a combination of all the above? I hope we've made a series where ultimately you'll watch Lucas' journey and think "Ooh! I wish it hadn't been like that" and "Oh him and Maya, maybe they could have been together and maybe it would have been all alright" because I think what's lovely about series 9 is that there's a real love story there.
RA: In a way she's a memory; he thought that he could go back there, that he could become John again and that they'd have a future together, and I actually think when he lost her he realises that would never have happened.
EP: He ends up not knowing who he is.
RA: But it's quite an elegant death, a non-violent death, which is sort of what I asked for.
Interviewer: You're bowing out now from Spooks, what highlights have there been over the years?
RA: I think being strapped naked to an electric chair, having water thrown over me and sort of wired up to a car battery, covered in tattoos and being electrocuted was... a high point! I think the moment where he got on the chair and put his head in a noose was quite interesting because it was just a stage-direction but the director said, you know, "I'll leave the camera on, however you get on that chair is up to you", so that was quite an interesting acting exercise for me. I think Connie's storyline was really exciting, a real page-turning episode. And in this series we've got another page-turning episode where the grid is locked-down and Lucas is left on the outside to try and bring an asset in. I think it's those episodes where the team is really compromised as one unit that really excite me.
EP: Ultimately you've got extraordinary characters in extraordinary worlds and I think there's something about that which just will always be so dramatic, and so emotional.

Make of it what you will! I'll transcribe "The Cost of Being a Spy" as well, as long as it's not too long

[NightOwl]

Thank you, Byatil, for the transcription.

Series (DVD Extra) The Downfall of Lucas North Spoiler: show

Andrew Woodhead: I hope we've made a series where ultimately you'll watch Lucas' journey and think "Ooh! I wish it hadn't been like that"

Congratulations, you've succeeded, although perhaps not in the way you intended.

I didn't expect that they'd offer up any insights that would make me change my mind about the story arc, but I wish I had been wrong. The plot holes and coincidences aren't addressed at all. The explanations for Lucas's motivations and choices are inadequate and unconvincing. RA tries but he seems unsure himself what to make of all of it - "I don't think," "I think," "hard to define." I don't get the impression that he has much confidence in his understanding of Lucas/John. Who can blame him?

I realize the interviews were probably filmed during production, but I'm also a little disappointed that they didn't film the executive producer after the series ran so that he could address the complaints so many of us had about the series.

Interesting that when asked about the highlights of his Spooks experience, RA doesn't mention the Albany story arc at all.

[Nietzsche]

(04-03-2011 05:13 AM)NightOwl Wrote:  Thank you, Byatil, for the transcription.

Series (DVD Extra) The Downfall of Lucas North Spoiler: show

Andrew Woodhead: I hope we've made a series where ultimately you'll watch Lucas' journey and think "Ooh! I wish it hadn't been like that"

Congratulations, you've succeeded, although perhaps not in the way you intended.

I didn't expect that they'd offer up any insights that would make me change my mind about the story arc, but I wish I had been wrong. The plot holes and coincidences aren't addressed at all. The explanations for Lucas's motivations and choices are inadequate and unconvincing. RA tries but he seems unsure himself what to make of all of it - "I don't think," "I think," "hard to define." I don't get the impression that he has much confidence in his understanding of Lucas/John. Who can blame him?

I realize the interviews were probably filmed during production, but I'm also a little disappointed that they didn't film the executive producer after the series ran so that he could address the complaints so many of us had about the series.

Interesting that when asked about the highlights of his Spooks experience, RA doesn't mention the Albany story arc at all.

Poor Richard. You could see how hard it was for him to amalgamate the two characters in his head. He had to convince himself to be able to play the role at all, although he is such a gifted actor.

I bought the DVDs, but only watched this feature. I'll never watch series 9 again. The DVDs are now on the shelf, where they will remain for the rest of my days.

[BoHenley]

Thanks so much for the transcription, Byatil. That's super.

[langley]

Thank you, Byatil! Anxiously awaiting the transcription of "The Cost of Being a Spy!" You are so amazing to do this!

[Byatil]

"The Cost of Being a Spy" is an interesting feature, I watched it last night and quite enjoyed it I'll probably transcribe it later tonight; it's only 12mins long, so a bit shorter than "The Downfall of Lucas North"!