[spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas.

[BravoNine]

One has to wonder once the Russians find out about this mess with Lucas North, what would their reaction be? I mean, really, 8 years....not only did he not break, they also never found out he apparently was pretending to be someone else.....

"Damn we are idiots! How did we not know this evil John!?!?!??!!?"

[Byatil]

(21-11-2010 08:12 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(21-11-2010 08:05 PM)BoHenley Wrote:  So why didn't Lucas unravel THEN? Instead he unravels with Vaughan, a bloody suitcase and the mobile rock (Oh-My-A).

Exactly what I have been curious about too, Darsharvin claims that he knows every inch of Lucas's mind......I think he missed something.... some VERY important...like a whole new identity!!!

Or he was just a horrible interrogator....

Seriously, this whole John storyline makes every intelligence agency look like idiots....am I to believe that NO ONE noticed any difference? Either the Russians suck at interrogation or Lucas/John is just so amazing of an actor....

It is always possible that the Russian's just weren't asking him any questions relating to his identity... not likely, but possible. I'm not quite sure how interrogation works, but I'm fairly sure they have to establish your identity before they can go torturing you There's always the argument that John 'forgot who he really was' etc, but seriously, when you're under that amount of physical, mental and emotional strain... you'll say anything to escape from it, as a general rule. It doesn't make much sense to me that Lucas could have gone 8 years without revealing anything, considering in the real world, most people don't last more than around a minute when undergoing water-boarding before they reveal something.

[BravoNine]

(21-11-2010 08:17 PM)Byatil Wrote:  

(21-11-2010 08:12 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(21-11-2010 08:05 PM)BoHenley Wrote:  So why didn't Lucas unravel THEN? Instead he unravels with Vaughan, a bloody suitcase and the mobile rock (Oh-My-A).

Exactly what I have been curious about too, Darsharvin claims that he knows every inch of Lucas's mind......I think he missed something.... some VERY important...like a whole new identity!!!

Or he was just a horrible interrogator....

Seriously, this whole John storyline makes every intelligence agency look like idiots....am I to believe that NO ONE noticed any difference? Either the Russians suck at interrogation or Lucas/John is just so amazing of an actor....

It is always possible that the Russian's just weren't asking him any questions relating to his identity... not likely, but possible. I'm not quite sure how interrogation works, but I'm fairly sure they have to establish your identity before they can go torturing you There's always the argument that John 'forgot who he really was' etc, but seriously, when you're under that amount of physical, mental and emotional strain... you'll say anything to escape from it, as a general rule. It doesn't make much sense to me that Lucas could have gone 8 years without revealing anything, considering in the real world, most people don't last more than around a minute when undergoing water-boarding before they reveal something.

Honestly, the Russians should have just gone for the evil briefcase with old pictures routine, clearly it worked rather well for Vaughn.....

Forget torture, that good ole briefcase should do the trick! No torture needed!

[BoHenley]

Haha! You are so right. Yep, good ole briefcase (GOB) sales skyrocket on the worldwide stock exchanges...

[Belle]

Lol, BravoNine, I totally agree, forget waterboarding and torture, a briefcase is what we need!

On a more seriuos note: this just is another proof that the writers completely ruined everthing about Lucas' past, he withstood years of torture but when in sight of a suitcase he crumbles like a piece of, well, applecrumble....!

---

(21-11-2010 08:12 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  Seriously, this whole John storyline makes every intelligence agency look like idiots....am I to believe that NO ONE noticed any difference? Either the Russians suck at interrogation or Lucas/John is just so amazing of an actor....

I know the answer to this secret: Lucas North isn't John Bateman, he is Richard Armitage!!! Only he could be such an amazing actor to fool every intelligence agency on the world!

[HellsBells]

This is just a thought.....but could Lucas have told the Russians who he really was and they simply didn't believe him. They knew he was Lucas North because Connie James had betrayed him and therefore just assumed he was lying about being John Bateman. They probably just kept torturing him until he agreed that he was Lucas North.

[binkie]

(22-11-2010 02:21 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  This is just a thought.....but could Lucas have told the Russians who he really was and they simply didn't believe him. They knew he was Lucas North because Connie James had betrayed him and therefore just assumed he was lying about being John Bateman. They probably just kept torturing him until he agreed that he was Lucas North.

I'm sorry: John who? Who is this John Bateman of whom you speak?

[Belle]

(22-11-2010 02:21 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  This is just a thought.....but could Lucas have told the Russians who he really was and they simply didn't believe him. They knew he was Lucas North because Connie James had betrayed him and therefore just assumed he was lying about being John Bateman. They probably just kept torturing him until he agreed that he was Lucas North.

That could have happened indeed, but I kinda think that if they were hearing the name John Bateman, they sure would investigate this further, never knowing what they could come up with that they may could use as leverage.
Or at least find a way to examin Lucas Norths past. If the story of S9 made any sense, they sure would have find that picture that Beth found in 5 minutes (with the real Lucas North on it).

I think that, when the writers from S7 and S8 came up with this history for Lucas, there was no 'Lucas really is John Bateman' to be seen in miles, so there was no reason for the russian interogators to question Lucas about 'a different identity'. I really am incligned to see S9 as something that stand on its own and has no bearing on S7 and S8 what so ever. There are too many things that can't be explained in a satisfying manner. But that's just my opinion.

[Byatil]

(22-11-2010 02:48 PM)Belle Wrote:  

(22-11-2010 02:21 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  This is just a thought.....but could Lucas have told the Russians who he really was and they simply didn't believe him. They knew he was Lucas North because Connie James had betrayed him and therefore just assumed he was lying about being John Bateman. They probably just kept torturing him until he agreed that he was Lucas North.

That could have happened indeed, but I kinda think that if they were hearing the name John Bateman, they sure would investigate this further, never knowing what they could come up with that they may could use as leverage.
Or at least find a way to examin Lucas Norths past. If the story of S9 made any sense, they sure would have find that picture that Beth found in 5 minutes (with the real Lucas North on it).

I think that, when the writers from S7 and S8 came up with this history for Lucas, there was no 'Lucas really is John Bateman' to be seen in miles, so there was no reason for the russian interogators to question Lucas about 'a different identity'. I really am incligned to see S9 as something that stand on its own and has no bearing on S7 and S8 what so ever. There are too many things that can't be explained in a satisfying manner. But that's just my opinion.

It doesn't make sense to me that the Russian's wouldn't have unearthed anything regarding Lucas' identity/history. Especially as (as you say) Beth was able to locate information about him in minutes. I also find it rather unlikely that Lucas would have been able to construct an entire past life for himself, and indeed, that the real Lucas North had no family or friends who would have missed him? It doesn't add up.

Seeing S9 as a stand-alone piece does help the story make slightly more sense, but the fact of the matter is that Lucas is a character who has been developed for 2 series prior to S9. You can't just discount that, and assume that no-one in the audience will notice/care that you've completely disregarded the characters history to suit yourself. The fact that they have used some information to support their argument which has been developed in S8+9, but not other pieces of information only supports this further. How can you pick and choose information from a characters history to suit yourself, without realising that doing so will put the characters entire history under scrutiny?

And lets face it, the Russians would more than likely have wanted to know if Lucas was using aliases which could potentially have infiltrated their systems. He would have had a Russian alias when he was captured I assume, and the Russians would have been asking about his British identity. It is possible, as I said, that they just never really bothered looking for further information once they had confirmed his identity as Lucas North... but when it's that easy for Beth to discover his 'true' identity, you do have to wonder why no-one else thought to check earlier. Especially seeing as Lucas was never really trusted.

None of it adds up for me. Either the writers thought we wouldn't notice, or MI5's security/background checks are severely compromised!

[Belle]

(22-11-2010 02:59 PM)Byatil Wrote:  It doesn't make sense to me that the Russian's wouldn't have unearthed anything regarding Lucas' identity/history. Especially as (as you say) Beth was able to locate information about him in minutes. I also find it rather unlikely that Lucas would have been able to construct an entire past life for himself, and indeed, that the real Lucas North had no family or friends who would have missed him? It doesn't add up.

Seeing S9 as a stand-alone piece does help the story make slightly more sense, but the fact of the matter is that Lucas is a character who has been developed for 2 series prior to S9. You can't just discount that, and assume that no-one in the audience will notice/care that you've completely disregarded the characters history to suit yourself. The fact that they have used some information to support their argument which has been developed in S8+9, but not other pieces of information only supports this further. How can you pick and choose information from a characters history to suit yourself, without realising that doing so will put the characters entire history under scrutiny?

And lets face it, the Russians would more than likely have wanted to know if Lucas was using aliases which could potentially have infiltrated their systems. He would have had a Russian alias when he was captured I assume, and the Russians would have been asking about his British identity. It is possible, as I said, that they just never really bothered looking for further information once they had confirmed his identity as Lucas North... but when it's that easy for Beth to discover his 'true' identity, you do have to wonder why no-one else thought to check earlier. Especially seeing as Lucas was never really trusted.

None of it adds up for me. Either the writers thought we wouldn't notice, or MI5's security/background checks are severely compromised!

I am totally with you, Byatil, on the fact that the russians would have investigate Lucas' identity and aliases. The whole story is full of flaws (as we all agreed on many times in this forum) and there is no way that ever could account for the stupid mistakes the writers made.

I'm not sure, however, if your second paragraph is directed to me or not.
If it is, I'm certainly not saying anyone should disregard any of the characters that we are presented with, they all have their meaning, and I surely wouldn't tell anyone to 'forget' about S7 and S8, this is not what I ment to say.
I just find S9 (the Lucas/John story) so completely confusing that I think that the writers saw S9 as standing on its own.
And to make it somewhat more understandable for me, I ask myself if I should see it like that too.
But in no way am I approving that they messed up Lucas' character and history, not to mention the many faults that are present in the script.
I too have invested 'emotions' in Lucas' character and I too was speachless when I saw what they thought up for him.