[spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas.

[Byatil]

(22-11-2010 03:43 PM)Belle Wrote:  I'm not sure, however, if your second paragraph is directed to me or not.
If it is, I'm certainly not saying anyone should disregard any of the characters that we are presented with, they all have their meaning, and I surely wouldn't tell anyone to 'forget' about S7 and S8, this is not what I ment to say.
I just find S9 (the Lucas/John story) so completely confusing that I think that the writers saw S9 as standing on its own.
And to make it somewhat more understandable for me, I ask myself if I should see it like that too.
But in no way am I approving that they messed up Lucas' character and history, not to mention the many faults that are present in the script.
I too have invested 'emotions' in Lucas' character and I too was speachless when I saw what they thought up for him.

Oh no, it was a general point based upon what you had said I do see how the writers might have written S9 as a stand alone series, but what I'm saying is that because they've taken information from the previous 2 series to back up their writing, it doesn't make sense for S9 to be a stand-alone piece... does that make sense?

If they hadn't attempted to use any of Lucas' backstory from S7+8, then I would understand S9 being a completely different story, as it were. But because they used details from the previous writers, I'm never (personally) going to be able to see S9 as a stand-alone script.

[HellsBells]

There is no doubt that series 9 does not relate to series 7 & 8. The writers clearly know less about the character than us, the viewers.
I think the fact that Beth uncovered that photo of 'real' Lucas was a big flaw in the plot. Lucas was so good at his job he would certainly have erased every trace of the real Lucas.

I think the writers wanted us to feel the same sense of betrayal that the rest of the team felt, which worked very well. But you can't do that to an established character without a really excellent story and unfortunately this wasn't it.

[Byatil]

(22-11-2010 04:02 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  There is no doubt that series 9 does not relate to series 7 & 8. The writers clearly know less about the character than us, the viewers.
I think the fact that Beth uncovered that photo of 'real' Lucas was a big flaw in the plot. Lucas was so good at his job he would certainly have erased every trace of the real Lucas.

I think the writers wanted us to feel the same sense of betrayal that the rest of the team felt, which worked very well. But you can't do that to an established character without a really excellent story and unfortunately this wasn't it.

Oh yes, they did a very good job at making us all feel betrayed, I'll give them that. The problem is, it's not Lucas I feel betrayed by... it's the writers!

And the problem is, that, as I've said... they used the information from 7&8 which suited them, and omitted any information that didn't. That's what annoys me about S9. If it was a completely stand-alone piece, it might make more sense... but it isn't. In a way, I think it's wrong that they were allowed to take someone elses character and fuck around with him. I would have liked to see the old writers complete a story arc for Lucas before they left, but I guess it just wasn't to be

[Belle]

(22-11-2010 03:57 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Oh no, it was a general point based upon what you had said I do see how the writers might have written S9 as a stand alone series, but what I'm saying is that because they've taken information from the previous 2 series to back up their writing, it doesn't make sense for S9 to be a stand-alone piece... does that make sense?

If they hadn't attempted to use any of Lucas' backstory from S7+8, then I would understand S9 being a completely different story, as it were. But because they used details from the previous writers, I'm never (personally) going to be able to see S9 as a stand-alone script.

That does make sense, Byatil, , they should have indeed stayed away from S7 and S8, by not using info given to us in those two seasons. Maybe that way it would be less (somewhat) confusing.
Let's say we both agree on the fact that they messed up S9 completely !

---

(22-11-2010 04:02 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  I think the writers wanted us to feel the same sense of betrayal that the rest of the team felt, which worked very well. But you can't do that to an established character without a really excellent story and unfortunately this wasn't it.

Ah yes, if that was their goal, they certainly succeeded!!!
It's a pitty they don't seem to care what their viewers think about it, and the fact that they think of us as silly, apperantly. They should be ashamed to have messed up such an opportunity to go deep in the psyche of Lucas and instead they gave us ...!

[BoHenley]

(22-11-2010 04:06 PM)Byatil Wrote:  

(22-11-2010 04:02 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  There is no doubt that series 9 does not relate to series 7 & 8. The writers clearly know less about the character than us, the viewers.
I think the fact that Beth uncovered that photo of 'real' Lucas was a big flaw in the plot. Lucas was so good at his job he would certainly have erased every trace of the real Lucas.

I think the writers wanted us to feel the same sense of betrayal that the rest of the team felt, which worked very well. But you can't do that to an established character without a really excellent story and unfortunately this wasn't it.

Oh yes, they did a very good job at making us all feel betrayed, I'll give them that. The problem is, it's not Lucas I feel betrayed by... it's the writers!

And the problem is, that, as I've said... they used the information from 7&8 which suited them, and omitted any information that didn't. That's what annoys me about S9. If it was a completely stand-alone piece, it might make more sense... but it isn't. In a way, I think it's wrong that they were allowed to take someone elses character and fuck around with him. I would have liked to see the old writers complete a story arc for Lucas before they left, but I guess it just wasn't to be

I agree. If they'd done this with (e.g.) Beth's character - it would've worked! She's already under suspicion (from the viewers), having gone in and changed her records. How much better would it have worked with her? (And I don't mean to get rid of Beth - I really like her character and the gorgeous Sophia). But doing this to Lucas after setting him up in S7 and S8 as loyal and trustworthy, if a little maverick - No, no, no.

[Byatil]

(22-11-2010 08:04 PM)BoHenley Wrote:  

(22-11-2010 04:06 PM)Byatil Wrote:  

(22-11-2010 04:02 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  There is no doubt that series 9 does not relate to series 7 & 8. The writers clearly know less about the character than us, the viewers.
I think the fact that Beth uncovered that photo of 'real' Lucas was a big flaw in the plot. Lucas was so good at his job he would certainly have erased every trace of the real Lucas.

I think the writers wanted us to feel the same sense of betrayal that the rest of the team felt, which worked very well. But you can't do that to an established character without a really excellent story and unfortunately this wasn't it.

Oh yes, they did a very good job at making us all feel betrayed, I'll give them that. The problem is, it's not Lucas I feel betrayed by... it's the writers!

And the problem is, that, as I've said... they used the information from 7&8 which suited them, and omitted any information that didn't. That's what annoys me about S9. If it was a completely stand-alone piece, it might make more sense... but it isn't. In a way, I think it's wrong that they were allowed to take someone elses character and fuck around with him. I would have liked to see the old writers complete a story arc for Lucas before they left, but I guess it just wasn't to be

I agree. If they'd done this with (e.g.) Beth's character - it would've worked! She's already under suspicion (from the viewers), having gone in and changed her records. How much better would it have worked with her? (And I don't mean to get rid of Beth - I really like her character and the gorgeous Sophia). But doing this to Lucas after setting him up in S7 and S8 as loyal and trustworthy, if a little maverick - No, no, no.

My thoughts exactly. I think I mentioned this on the Beth thread - this arc would have made SO much more sense in terms of her character. Whereas with Lucas? It just doesn't add up!

Anyway, I'm off to watch 8.4 in a moment, so I shall post some analysis of that in a few hours hopefully

[KitKat385]

(22-11-2010 08:06 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Anyway, I'm off to watch 8.4 in a moment, so I shall post some analysis of that in a few hours hopefully

Eagerly awaiting! Such an amazing episode - can't wait to hear thoughts on it!

[Byatil]

Okay, I'm going to basically write down some notes as I'm watching... so here goes nothing!

We see Lucas in bed with Sarah at the beginning of 8.4. Lucas is staring at the ceiling, watching the rain. Sarah remarks that she's "not thinking about [her] boss when [she] should be asleep". Lucas is so preoccupied by his need for Harry's trust, it's now a contributing factor to his sleeping difficulties. We already know that he finds sleeping difficult due to nightmares, but he now seems to be suffering from insomnia due to an over-active brain - he can't stop thinking about his job. Obviously, as his job is what landed him in Russia in the first place, the link between MI5 and the nightmares (and therefore Harry and the nightmares), we can assume, is a strong one.
The fact that Lucas seems reluctant to have Sarah "vetted" seems rather significant. Almost as if he doesn't want anything to cement their relationship? I think we could interpret this as him not feeling like the relationship is 'real'... maybe in the sense that it's 'too good to be true'. Commitment issues could also be a factor, or else he's scared of losing her (Elisabeta link). The other interpretation is that he doesn't trust Harry. Presumably he would play a part in the "vetting" process, and perhaps Lucas doesn't feel comfortable with Harry knowing something personal about him.

Sarah then proceeds to ask Lucas; "What is it with you and Harry Pierce anyway?"
To which he responds with the classic line "Harry and me? It's a sexual thing."
Now, I'm assuming there's some underlying meaning to this, as well as it being a little joke on Lucas' part. Perhaps he's projecting his fears in regard to his relationship with Sarah onto his relationship with Harry? Saying "it's a sexual thing" can imply a level of intimacy, but maybe also a sense of betrayal... Sarah betrays Lucas, Harry betrays Lucas. Prophetic irony, perhaps? Or maybe I'm looking a bit too far into it

We see Darsharvin for the first time as he breaks a man's neck. Cut to Sarah tracing the cross tattoos on Lucas' back. Subtle link to the pain Darsharvin inflicted on Lucas in Russia. Lucas is asleep, which probably signifies his vulnerability with regards to Darsharvin.

Now, we cut back to a sex scene (dream?) between Lucas and Sarah, but I'm not quite sure what the purpose of this was...? Unless the writers just wanted a shallow piece of soft-porn It could be interpreted as another prophecy of Sarah's betrayal, etc etc. I'm not too sure at this point though. Seeing as it's a dream, maybe it's something to do with Lucas realising that nothing in his life will ever work out? rofl. As soon as he finds a little happiness with Sarah, Darvarshan comes along and ruins it for him.

Lucas is plagued by the nightmare of Darsharvin looking for him, calling out "Lucas North". It seems odd that he would have this nightmare as the actual events are unfolding in the immigration centre? Once again, I'm not 100% sure of the significance of this, but perhaps it's just to show how interlinked the two men's minds are. It is said that Darsharvin knows "every inch" of Lucas' mind, and I'd guess that this nightmare is supposed to illustrate that point.

...this is all before the opening credits role, so I'll leave it there for now! I'm going to watch the rest of the episode and add to this, but hopefully I will have refreshed some memories somewhat and people will be able to comment on what I've noted thusfar.

[Poppy]

I found episode 8 of series 9 so sad, especially on the roof with Harry because I think they both felt they'd suffered the ultimate betrayal and the betrayer felt no remorse. Maybe for Lucas it was too much and that was what (literally!) tipped him over the edge...

As for the Maya/John relationship maybe the whole intention was that it was so strong that it was beyond physical like with Sarah, and you go by the fact that she trusts him completely and he will do anything for her...
I'm not sure, just a guess

[binkie]

(22-11-2010 09:25 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Lucas is so preoccupied by his need for Harry's trust, it's now a contributing factor to his sleeping difficulties. We already know that he finds sleeping difficult due to nightmares, but he now seems to be suffering from insomnia due to an over-active brain - he can't stop thinking about his job.

Until you mentioned it here, it never occurred to me that a (lack of) trust relationship might contribute to the wakefulness habit we are led to infer in Lucas' character. I like the idea of a juxtaposition of consequence (Lucas' obsession with his own trustworthiness) and cause (Oleg, representing Lucas' period of imprisonment) meeting in an explicit, albeit light-hearted, reference to Harry. This is a well-observed and well-made point.

(22-11-2010 09:25 PM)Byatil Wrote:  The fact that Lucas seems reluctant to have Sarah "vetted" seems rather significant. Almost as if he doesn't want anything to cement their relationship?

The suggestion of wilful self-denial is an interesting theme to tease out in reference to this character in this relationship, I think. This is really the first time in Lucas' post-release narrative that we see him in the context of (what seemed to be at that stage in season 8) a successful interpersonal relationship outside of the "colleagues are okay" caveat. The idea that he would, however unconsciously, place obstacles of omission or inaction in the way of a kind of acknowledgement of that relationship tells us something quite profound about Lucas' state of mind. It really speaks to the extent to which he is unable to accept that he has moved from a condition of being required to deny any sort of desire - be it something as mundane as a cigarette or something as complete as a lover - to one of being able to act on that desire. What seems to scare him about this is, as you suggest, the fact that he might find he has what he wants. The emotional consequences of this are surely quite overwhelming for someone with Lucas' recent experience.

These are subtle and embedded notes to pick up on as you watch (especially if you are scribbling at the same time!). I can't wait to read what you make of the rest of this episode :)