[spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas.

[Byatil]

(23-11-2010 09:51 PM)binkie Wrote:  For what it's worth, I think there are several things happening in this little knot of references.

1. Oleg tells Lucas to meet him at the White Cube. I don't know if you've ever seen or visited this gallery, but it is very aptly named. It's just another cell to put Lucas in, and demonstrates again how much this relationship is defined in terms of Oleg's choosing.
2. The image of Oscar Wilde is often invoked in modern literature and literary criticsm as an allusion to captivity. I think this serves an interesting purpose here. Oleg could have chosen any author, and we have been primed to expect him to choose someone English (Dickens, Trollope, etc.), but he chooses instead an Irishman who died young, ruined by his experience of prison.
3. The Picture of Dorian Gray is, essentially, a retelling of the story of Doctor Faustus, who made a deal with the devil in exchange for additional years of life. Oleg would, as Lucas' principal interrogator, have been fully aware that Lucas had agreed to spy for Russia upon his release from prison. It's easy to see how this could translate, both in Oleg's judgment and in Lucas' self-critical mind set, as a deal with the devil. It's an early example of Oleg's later insistence that he knows Lucas' mind.

I'm glad to see you are continuing with your analysis of this episode. It's a hard one to watch, but it's so important to an appreciation of Lucas' character and potential. I look forward to reading more from you on this when you have time

It's worth a lot, those are very interesting points Binkie! I've never heard of the gallery, but from what you've said, it does seem apt for Oleg to have chosen it as a meeting point.
I didn't realise "The Picture of Dorian Grey" was a retelling of "Doctor Faustus", but if it indeed is, then that makes a lot more sense. Lucas definitely did make a 'deal with the devil' in his deceptions of both the Russians and his own team, so that's a very interesting thing for Dasharvin to have 'picked up on', as it were.

Your insights are a lot more perceptive than mine, I only wish I had a greater literary knowledge of all the references made throughout Spooks! It just goes to show though, that Spooks is an incredibly well-written show. How they find the time to add in all these little jokes and references to popular-culture is quite beyond me.

[BravoNine]

(23-11-2010 09:57 PM)Byatil Wrote:  It just goes to show though, that Spooks is an incredibly well-written show. How they find the time to add in all these little jokes and references to popular-culture is quite beyond me.

This is also a reason why I am so disappointed that Spooks came up with such an illogical storyline for Lucas. To think that they could be so smart and intelligent to give great current stories with references to popular cultures, yet be so stupid and lazy to come up with such a far-fetched plot that did not even match what was given of Lucas before.

*shakes head*

[Byatil]

(23-11-2010 10:16 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(23-11-2010 09:57 PM)Byatil Wrote:  It just goes to show though, that Spooks is an incredibly well-written show. How they find the time to add in all these little jokes and references to popular-culture is quite beyond me.

This is also a reason why I am so disappointed that Spooks came up with such an illogical storyline for Lucas. To think that they could be so smart and intelligent to give great current stories with references to popular cultures, yet be so stupid and lazy to come up with such a far-fetched plot that did not even match what was given of Lucas before.

*shakes head*

I'll be interested to further analyse S9 actually, because there seems to be a very distinct shift in the writing-style from S8 to S9. I didn't actually notice any cultural references in S9 that I can remember. I'll have to go back through S9 and see if the writers bothered adding any of these extra layers of information in, or if a lot of it was just left to the actors to portray themselves. It seems strange that the style of the script would change so dramatically.

[BoHenley]

Thanks for the fabulous insights into those episodes.

I'm re-watching S7 at the moment, and the Australian ABC is broadcasting S8 (we've just had 8.4). From what Lucas says in S7 about his torture and imprisonment, and after watching 8.4 again, I simply can't believe that Lucas wouldn't have divulged SOMETHING about his past life as John UNDER TORTURE. Those scenes are distressing, we could assume there were worse (as there are in real life) and there's no way he could keep that buried, even if Darsharvin, Kachimov and that female torturer didn't ask him specifically.

It's another thing that DOESN'T BLOODY ADD UP about S9. (fume)

[Belle]

(24-11-2010 11:17 AM)BoHenley Wrote:  Thanks for the fabulous insights into those episodes.

I'm re-watching S7 at the moment, and the Australian ABC is broadcasting S8 (we've just had 8.4). From what Lucas says in S7 about his torture and imprisonment, and after watching 8.4 again, I simply can't believe that Lucas wouldn't have divulged SOMETHING about his past life as John UNDER TORTURE. Those scenes are distressing, we could assume there were worse (as there are in real life) and there's no way he could keep that buried, even if Darsharvin, Kachimov and that female torturer didn't ask him specifically.

It's another thing that DOESN'T BLOODY ADD UP about S9. (fume)

My toughts exactly!
Lucas could never have kept his secret identity covered whilst undergoing torture.
So there are two options:
a) The russians knew about Lucas/ John. But surely they would have used that info to their benefit by making him a double-agent or something like that, threatening to reveal his true identity to MI5. If the rusians knew that Lucas was John Bateman they had a leverage that could be golden to them, but we never saw or heard something in that line.
b) The whole Lucas = John story arc is b*llsh*t! The writers of S9 forgot to watch S7 and S8 or they just used what was conveniant for them.

[WhiteSwan]

(24-11-2010 01:48 PM)Belle Wrote:  

(24-11-2010 11:17 AM)BoHenley Wrote:  Thanks for the fabulous insights into those episodes.

I'm re-watching S7 at the moment, and the Australian ABC is broadcasting S8 (we've just had 8.4). From what Lucas says in S7 about his torture and imprisonment, and after watching 8.4 again, I simply can't believe that Lucas wouldn't have divulged SOMETHING about his past life as John UNDER TORTURE. Those scenes are distressing, we could assume there were worse (as there are in real life) and there's no way he could keep that buried, even if Darsharvin, Kachimov and that female torturer didn't ask him specifically.

It's another thing that DOESN'T BLOODY ADD UP about S9. (fume)

My toughts exactly!
Lucas could never have kept his secret identity covered whilst undergoing torture.
So there are two options:
a) The russians knew about Lucas/ John. But surely they would have used that info to their benefit by making him a double-agent or something like that, threatening to reveal his true identity to MI5. If the rusians knew that Lucas was John Bateman they had a leverage that could be golden to them, but we never saw or heard something in that line.
b) The whole Lucas = John story arc is b*llsh*t! The writers of S9 forgot to watch S7 and S8 or they just used what was conveniant for them.

I wholeheartedly agree with option b)!

Normally I'm not someone searching meticulously for plotholes in a film or series, but here it's the basic storyline which is absolutely ridiculous. Which then makes me want to look out for all the other numerous major or minor plotholes. Maybe one day soon I will make a list of all of them!

[HellsBells]

(23-11-2010 09:51 PM)binkie Wrote:  

(23-11-2010 04:25 PM)Byatil Wrote:  In 8.4, Lucas and Dasharvin use the aliases 'Wilde' and 'Grey'. I'm assuming these refer to Oscar Wilde, and perhaps the book "The Picture Of Dorian Grey"? Can anyone offer any further insight into this? I haven't read the book.

For what it's worth, I think there are several things happening in this little knot of references.

1. Oleg tells Lucas to meet him at the White Cube. I don't know if you've ever seen or visited this gallery, but it is very aptly named. It's just another cell to put Lucas in, and demonstrates again how much this relationship is defined in terms of Oleg's choosing.
2. The image of Oscar Wilde is often invoked in modern literature and literary criticsm as an allusion to captivity. I think this serves an interesting purpose here. Oleg could have chosen any author, and we have been primed to expect him to choose someone English (Dickens, Trollope, etc.), but he chooses instead an Irishman who died young, ruined by his experience of prison.
3. The Picture of Dorian Gray is, essentially, a retelling of the story of Doctor Faustus, who made a deal with the devil in exchange for additional years of life. Oleg would, as Lucas' principal interrogator, have been fully aware that Lucas had agreed to spy for Russia upon his release from prison. It's easy to see how this could translate, both in Oleg's judgment and in Lucas' self-critical mind set, as a deal with the devil. It's an early example of Oleg's later insistence that he knows Lucas' mind.

I'm glad to see you are continuing with your analysis of this episode. It's a hard one to watch, but it's so important to an appreciation of Lucas' character and potential. I look forward to reading more from you on this when you have time

Thanks for this wonderful insight into this reference, I now feel I understand this so much better.

[Poppy]

(24-11-2010 01:48 PM)Belle Wrote:  

(24-11-2010 11:17 AM)BoHenley Wrote:  Thanks for the fabulous insights into those episodes.

I'm re-watching S7 at the moment, and the Australian ABC is broadcasting S8 (we've just had 8.4). From what Lucas says in S7 about his torture and imprisonment, and after watching 8.4 again, I simply can't believe that Lucas wouldn't have divulged SOMETHING about his past life as John UNDER TORTURE. Those scenes are distressing, we could assume there were worse (as there are in real life) and there's no way he could keep that buried, even if Darsharvin, Kachimov and that female torturer didn't ask him specifically.

It's another thing that DOESN'T BLOODY ADD UP about S9. (fume)

My toughts exactly!
Lucas could never have kept his secret identity covered whilst undergoing torture.
So there are two options:
a) The russians knew about Lucas/ John. But surely they would have used that info to their benefit by making him a double-agent or something like that, threatening to reveal his true identity to MI5. If the rusians knew that Lucas was John Bateman they had a leverage that could be golden to them, but we never saw or heard something in that line.
b) The whole Lucas = John story arc is b*llsh*t! The writers of S9 forgot to watch S7 and S8 or they just used what was conveniant for them.

I totally agree with you about the storyline, but maybe he did divulge something about John. They might not have said anything about it when they let him go because he agreed to work as a double agent.
Dasharvin wouldn't have said anything when he returned because he needed Lucas to help him.
Could that be why Lucas was so keen to deal with Dasharvin on his own and why Dasharvin has such a hold over him???
I know it's a bit far out...

[BravoNine]

(24-11-2010 05:47 PM)Poppy Wrote:  

(24-11-2010 01:48 PM)Belle Wrote:  

(24-11-2010 11:17 AM)BoHenley Wrote:  Thanks for the fabulous insights into those episodes.

I'm re-watching S7 at the moment, and the Australian ABC is broadcasting S8 (we've just had 8.4). From what Lucas says in S7 about his torture and imprisonment, and after watching 8.4 again, I simply can't believe that Lucas wouldn't have divulged SOMETHING about his past life as John UNDER TORTURE. Those scenes are distressing, we could assume there were worse (as there are in real life) and there's no way he could keep that buried, even if Darsharvin, Kachimov and that female torturer didn't ask him specifically.

It's another thing that DOESN'T BLOODY ADD UP about S9. (fume)

My toughts exactly!
Lucas could never have kept his secret identity covered whilst undergoing torture.
So there are two options:
a) The russians knew about Lucas/ John. But surely they would have used that info to their benefit by making him a double-agent or something like that, threatening to reveal his true identity to MI5. If the rusians knew that Lucas was John Bateman they had a leverage that could be golden to them, but we never saw or heard something in that line.
b) The whole Lucas = John story arc is b*llsh*t! The writers of S9 forgot to watch S7 and S8 or they just used what was conveniant for them.

I totally agree with you about the storyline, but maybe he did divulge something about John. They might not have said anything about it when they let him go because he agreed to work as a double agent.
Dasharvin wouldn't have said anything when he returned because he needed Lucas to help him.
Could that be why Lucas was so keen to deal with Dasharvin on his own and why Dasharvin has such a hold over him???
I know it's a bit far out...

I seriously doubt they had this planned out from the very beginning, they were always saying that Lucas was a heroic character, a good guy with a tortured past, if they had planned to have this whole John thing, there would have been at least even a TINY HINT of something about John throughout Series 7 and 8, there could have been little mentions or drops, but nothing, and then voila! Series 9 starts off with some stupid suitcase and no mention of the Russians knowing at all.

Not to mention that Lucas says to Ruth that he has been "sooooo careful"

[Poppy]

(24-11-2010 05:58 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(24-11-2010 05:47 PM)Poppy Wrote:  

(24-11-2010 01:48 PM)Belle Wrote:  

(24-11-2010 11:17 AM)BoHenley Wrote:  Thanks for the fabulous insights into those episodes.

I'm re-watching S7 at the moment, and the Australian ABC is broadcasting S8 (we've just had 8.4). From what Lucas says in S7 about his torture and imprisonment, and after watching 8.4 again, I simply can't believe that Lucas wouldn't have divulged SOMETHING about his past life as John UNDER TORTURE. Those scenes are distressing, we could assume there were worse (as there are in real life) and there's no way he could keep that buried, even if Darsharvin, Kachimov and that female torturer didn't ask him specifically.

It's another thing that DOESN'T BLOODY ADD UP about S9. (fume)

My toughts exactly!
Lucas could never have kept his secret identity covered whilst undergoing torture.
So there are two options:
a) The russians knew about Lucas/ John. But surely they would have used that info to their benefit by making him a double-agent or something like that, threatening to reveal his true identity to MI5. If the rusians knew that Lucas was John Bateman they had a leverage that could be golden to them, but we never saw or heard something in that line.
b) The whole Lucas = John story arc is b*llsh*t! The writers of S9 forgot to watch S7 and S8 or they just used what was conveniant for them.

I totally agree with you about the storyline, but maybe he did divulge something about John. They might not have said anything about it when they let him go because he agreed to work as a double agent.
Dasharvin wouldn't have said anything when he returned because he needed Lucas to help him.
Could that be why Lucas was so keen to deal with Dasharvin on his own and why Dasharvin has such a hold over him???
I know it's a bit far out...

I seriously doubt they had this planned out from the very beginning, they were always saying that Lucas was a heroic character, a good guy with a tortured past, if they had planned to have this whole John thing, there would have been at least even a TINY HINT of something about John throughout Series 7 and 8, there could have been little mentions or drops, but nothing, and then voila! Series 9 starts off with some stupid suitcase and no mention of the Russians knowing at all.

Not to mention that Lucas says to Ruth that he has been "sooooo careful"

Yes, you're right, now I think about it...they would made some sort of hints or something...