[spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas.

[BoHenley]

Correct. And my local LIBRARY has more security just to borrow a book! (true)

[BravoNine]

(23-12-2010 09:36 PM)BoHenley Wrote:  Correct. And my local LIBRARY has more security just to borrow a book! (true)

I know some people were saying that it's because the times were different back then at MI5, that it was the early/mid-1990s so they don't have the current security measures that MI5 has now. But to me, that is just a load of BS.

How am I suppose to believe that a so called "security services" even back in the 1990s doesn't even use a photo to identify the people they recruit? That security was so bad that anyone can just walk in and pretend to be someone else without anyone noticing even though the person clearly did not even hide all the evidence!

This isn't just a security breach, this is just stupidity of the most enormous proportions!!!

How does MI5 even call themselves a intelligence agency?

Thanks to the writers of Series 9, they have turned every intelligence agency in the world into an idiot because apparently Lucas North/John Bateman fooled everyone.

[HellsBells]

Over on the Lucas and his Tattoos thread allanah posted this:

I always thought that Jo stirred up in Lucas some emotions that made him uncomfortable when he interacted with her because in some ways her trauma and emotional problems were too close to home for him to be comfortable with. Why in series 7 in 7.5 when she drops the tray of drinks does he speak so harshly to her? My view is that her breakdown is very uncomfortable for him because he recognises that with his history he could go the same way. Again when he speaks to Harry afterwards about Jo being in trouble there is a lot of emotion there and I think it comes from the recognition that he and Jo have a lot in common and so in some ways there is an identification with her, even though its not an association he is comfortable with.


I think this is really interesting, Jo and Lucas had so much in common but never really spoke to each other.
When Lucas speaks to Harry I think that maybe he is annoyed by the fact that Harry hadn't notice Jo's suffering, and is reflected by the fact that Harry seems to be oblivious to Lucas' own suffering.

[BravoNine]

(10-01-2011 12:44 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  I think this is really interesting, Jo and Lucas had so much in common but never really spoke to each other.

When Lucas speaks to Harry I think that maybe he is annoyed by the fact that Harry hadn't notice Jo's suffering, and is reflected by the fact that Harry seems to be oblivious to Lucas' own suffering.

Well, Harry seems oblivious about a lot of things, which I think it's not really oblivious as much as accepting that there are always consequences in this line of work. It seems that for Harry, it truly is defend Queen and Country at whatever the cost, but a lot of his subordinates seem to draw the line at somewhere, but Harry really doesn't share this nor does he really seem to understand or see it in the same way.

Take a look at that argument he and Lucas had when Harry told Lucas about Sugar-Horse and asked Lucas to recall his memory from his torture, and then Lucas was enraged and told Harry that "there are limits to what you can ask of people, Harry, even in our line of business", this rather indicates that to Lucas, in his mind, there are some lines you don't cross, and somehow I don't see that with Harry.

I always felt like Harry never really focused on his team's emotional status unless it interfered with an operation, he seems to think that its their own issue to deal with and fix, and I think that it's that mentality that fosters his own people to run amok or break down like Tom did. Harry expects his team to just take everything that's thrown at them without really realizing that not everyone is him, and it's through that ignorance or maybe even avoidance of emotions, that Harry allows his people to fall prey to thoughts of betrayal or change.

[HellsBells]

(10-01-2011 12:56 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  Take a look at that argument he and Lucas had when Harry told Lucas about Sugar-Horse and asked Lucas to recall his memory from his torture, and then Lucas was enraged and told Harry that "there are limits to what you can ask of people, Harry, even in our line of business", this rather indicates that to Lucas, in his mind, there are some lines you don't cross, and somehow I don't see that with Harry.

I agree that there doesn't seem to be that line that Harry won't cross for his Country (except in series 9 of course, but series 9 never happen did it?). Is this a good trait...I'm not sure. But then Harry hasn't had to give so much as Lucas (8 years of torture) and lacks some empathy with his team, otherwise he would have noticed Jo's problems.
But back in 7.1 Harry told Adam that he was responsible for Lucas' physical and mental well being, but appears to have done nothing. Lucas was far better at empathising with the team, such as spotting Jo's problems, chatting to Ben after the suicide bombings (7.3), even talking to Malcolm in 7.2 about Adam's death, despite his own problems. I think this made Lucas different from many Spooks we seen over the years because he cared about people rather than used them, again similar to Jo.

[BravoNine]

(10-01-2011 02:28 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  I agree that there doesn't seem to be that line that Harry won't cross for his Country (except in series 9 of course, but series 9 never happen did it?). Is this a good trait...I'm not sure. But then Harry hasn't had to give so much as Lucas (8 years of torture) and lacks some empathy with his team, otherwise he would have noticed Jo's problems.

Except even in Series 9, Harry gave up a secret (while useful) that wasn't really harmful anymore other than using it as a bluff. Albany, as dangerous as it was, wasn't an effective weapon, so technically the choice made was quite easy in a way. A useless weapon for a member of his team (whether she was the love of his life or not)

So really, it seems to be there is no line Harry can't cross. I just think Harry's lack of sympathy comes from the issue that he seems to think that all those in service should give it all and that emotional well-beings and weaknesses are not needed in this business. That's why his team tries to bury it away, and it's that act of denial in these feelings that grows the seeds of betrayal and manipulation.

(10-01-2011 02:28 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  But back in 7.1 Harry told Adam that he was responsible for Lucas' physical and mental well being, but appears to have done nothing. Lucas was far better at empathising with the team, such as spotting Jo's problems, chatting to Ben after the suicide bombings (7.3), even talking to Malcolm in 7.2 about Adam's death, despite his own problems. I think this made Lucas different from many Spooks we seen over the years because he cared about people rather than used them, again similar to Jo.

That's what I always thought the difference with Harry and Lucas. Harry would risk anything, he may feel bad and have sympathy but that is quickly overshadowed by his duty (the only other time he hesitated was after Ros died), but for Lucas, you can always tell he hated himself for following certain orders, he can't go through with it, and even in Series 9 that was apparent in Episode 6 with the American hacker girl, in the end he couldn't shoot her even with Harry shouting in his ear and he figured out the lies.

I think that's why Harry is good at his job and stayed on longer than most agents under his command, because he can shelve away his emotions, he can turn away the guilt, but he fails to realize that not everyone in the service is him, so therefore, they do feel and some of his agents feel very deeply, and he can't connect to that.

The quality that makes Harry a good leader, a good agent, and someone who has stayed so long with the service without burning out is what is destroying his team from the inside. It's a double-edged sword.

[Byatil]

(10-01-2011 02:28 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  But back in 7.1 Harry told Adam that he was responsible for Lucas' physical and mental well being, but appears to have done nothing. Lucas was far better at empathising with the team, such as spotting Jo's problems, chatting to Ben after the suicide bombings (7.3), even talking to Malcolm in 7.2 about Adam's death, despite his own problems. I think this made Lucas different from many Spooks we seen over the years because he cared about people rather than used them, again similar to Jo.

This is an interesting point. I always wondered why Harry was so quick to accept Lucas' claim that he was "ready to work" again, especially when a lot of evidence pointed to the contrary. I'd assume it was just out of guilt, or perhaps he knew that Lucas wouldn't cope if he was forced to stay away from the Grid. The main thing I find strange is that Lucas was never de-briefed? Harry asked him questions about Katchimov, but that seemed to be the end of it?

Lucas was good at manipulating people when he needed to, though. I think perhaps concentrating on other people's issues took his mind off of his own; or that by realising the people who surrounded him weren't in a completely healthy mental state helped him feel more 'normal'.

[Saerwen]

Harry in his position should have had Lucas debriefed as a matter of course and especially after the Russians had him all that time and person if he had some sort of trust could have been rebuilt.

Although Ros told him that Harry moved heaven and Earth (can't remember the exact saying) to get him back Lucas had no tangible proof of this and I think in his state of mind he needed proof that he was wanted and valuable to those he left behind.
I think once Lucas was captured Harry closed the door on him and got on with the job in hand. As time passed and Lucas's captivity lengthened perhaps Harry thought he wouldn't come back at all and when he did go and get him back quite suddenly it seemed it threw up a real awkwardness then had he debriefed Lucas who had asked why did it take so long to get him back, what was Harry going to tell him as it seemed he hadn't done anything at all.

[BoHenley]

(10-01-2011 02:28 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  But back in 7.1 Harry told Adam that he was responsible for Lucas' physical and mental well being, but appears to have done nothing. Lucas was far better at empathising with the team, such as spotting Jo's problems, chatting to Ben after the suicide bombings (7.3), even talking to Malcolm in 7.2 about Adam's death, despite his own problems. I think this made Lucas different from many Spooks we seen over the years because he cared about people rather than used them, again similar to Jo.

Which makes Series 9 even more stupid.

[Byatil]

(10-01-2011 10:53 PM)BoHenley Wrote:  

(10-01-2011 02:28 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  But back in 7.1 Harry told Adam that he was responsible for Lucas' physical and mental well being, but appears to have done nothing. Lucas was far better at empathising with the team, such as spotting Jo's problems, chatting to Ben after the suicide bombings (7.3), even talking to Malcolm in 7.2 about Adam's death, despite his own problems. I think this made Lucas different from many Spooks we seen over the years because he cared about people rather than used them, again similar to Jo.

Which makes Series 9 even more stupid.

Not necessarily; as we saw with Ruth, he still cared for her well-being, he was just acting in a manner of selfish desperation. At that point she was arguably the only person on the team who he had any emotional ties to - he never showed much of an interest in Beth or Dmitri (well, he actually seemed to rather dislike Beth), and as far as I could see him and Tariq were never particularly close. Which leaves Harry... the one person Lucas might want to exact revenge on