[spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas.

[Silktie]

(19-01-2011 02:56 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  So Lucas tells Harry what happened in Dakar about the bombs and how Vaughn manipulated him, so why did then on the roof Harry asks Lucas, "if you knew what you were doing, then why didn't you stop?"

I mean, what does Harry mean Lucas knew? That he knew about the bomb? And how did Harry knew Lucas knew about the bomb if no one else is alive who can verify that since Lucas never told Harry?

Remember Alex figured out that Lucas was lying when he told Harry in 9.7 that he didn't know what was in the briefcase Vaughn had him deliver to the embassy. So during the confrontation on the roof in 9.8 Harry knew that Lucas had lied about that, and the logical conclusion was that Lucas knew it was a bomb he was delivering to the embassy. Hence Harry asking him why he did it if he knew there was a bomb in the suitcase.

[Byatil]

(17-01-2011 01:43 AM)binkie Wrote:  

(14-01-2011 10:48 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Lucas seems to place more trust in women than he does men...

This is a really provocative insight with enormous potential for further consideration. What prompted your initial observation? Do you have a theory to explain the gender element in Lucas’ complex concerns about trust?

From what I've gathered he places a good deal more emotional-investment in women than he does in men. He confides in Ros, Ruth and even Jo to an extent, yet only fleetingly converses (awkwardly) with Malcolm and offers a drink to Ben. His converse with the male characters generally seems to be more focused on being polite in order to build relationships. Obviously, his link with Harry is a rather shaky one, and when they spend time together it often ends in an argument. Even Connie has quite a strong emotional link to Lucas - "It was me, Lucas. Not Harry."

On a very superficial level, I would assume that his perception of men has been tainted by his role within MI5, as well as his time spent in prison. I'm working under the assumption that he was kept in a male-dominated environment for 8 years, where there's a strict unwritten rule of keeping quiet. It is generally seen as unacceptable for men to show weakness to other men, so it makes sense that Lucas would hold more emotional-investment in women.

His relationship with Adam was interesting, however. I think perhaps Lucas thought he could model his "new self" upon him, or else saw a lot of the "old Lucas" in Adam's character. They seemed to get on really well right from the start, so it would have been interesting to see their relationship developed further. It's a shame Adam had to go and sacrifice himself!

Sorry for the short/uninspired reply, I'm rather tired and trying to write quickly

[BoHenley]

(19-01-2011 02:56 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  But to be honest, even then there is always a way out. Yes he bombed the embassy, yes he faked his identity, but he could have told them that he was manipulated by Vaughn, that he was a stupid young man who didn't know what was really happening, and that Vaughn killed the real Lucas, and Lucas/John took on his identity to redeem himself and joined MI5.

I mean, who would know if what he said wasn't the truth? And who would they believe more? Vaughn or Lucas? If they had avoided the whole Vaughn/Lucas confrontation, maybe then Lucas wouldn't have gone on the run, maybe if they had just kept a little more control on Lucas, this whole Albany crazy thing would have been stopped, Maya would be alive and Lucas wouldn't have gone loco at the end.

Would he be punished for what happened 15 years ago in Dakar? Probably, but his years of service and the fact that 8 years in Russia and he still never told them a thing should mean something. And if Ros could return to be Section Chief after her little betrayal act with Yalta, then why should the actions of a manipulated young man from 15 years ago who has now become a good loyal agent be so severely punished?

Maybe if all this craziness hadn't happened, they could have worked out some plea bargain or some other deal. If Lucas was the one being manipulated by Vaughn in Dakar, then it would be Vaughn who would be ultimately held responsible, Lucas could have gotten off with a lighter sentence if he stuck to his story that he didn't know what was in the briefcase.

I still fully believe that if things had been stopped sooner, Lucas could have survived, but since everyone seemed to have their mid-life crisis in Series 9, Lucas's activities went ignored and it snow-balled into this whole mess!

Maybe the guilt of the innocents dying in the bomb attack was still eating (the repented) Lucas away, and he just wanted to confess to someone in a "safe" environment, in this case Harry.

But what bothers me is that it's been 3 months since the last episode, and I'm still trying to make sense of it. Why? It doesn't make sense.

[Byatil]

I'm beginning to wonder if we should just start a "Series 9 plot-holes discussion" thread, what with the DVD coming out next month xD I think I'll buy it just so I can tirelessly pick apart the plot and attempt to make sense of it!

[BravoNine]

(19-01-2011 10:00 PM)BoHenley Wrote:  Maybe the guilt of the innocents dying in the bomb attack was still eating (the repented) Lucas away, and he just wanted to confess to someone in a "safe" environment, in this case Harry.

Hmmmm Lucas should work on his "confessing" abilities.... Because frankly, kidnapping your boss's lover and turning over state secrets are very bad ways of confessing....

I can see that he just wants to confess and maybe he was really repenting and he just wanted the truth to come out, but he certainly didn't help himself in the end with his hare-brained antics.

I'm still convinced that Lucas/John has mental issues or some kind of a disorder, because normal people don't just decide to go bomb embassies and kill their friends for passports.... heck I'm crazy enough and all I can come up with is stealing rowboats!

(19-01-2011 10:00 PM)BoHenley Wrote:  But what bothers me is that it's been 3 months since the last episode, and I'm still trying to make sense of it. Why? It doesn't make sense.

You are right, it doesn't make sense.

I do think that the emotional and psychological side of the story can be explained, after all, the human mind does work in very strange ways, but my big issue is more with the technical issues, how the dialogs and actions contradict each other and how the foundation of the story is just badly built!

(19-01-2011 10:05 PM)Byatil Wrote:  I'm beginning to wonder if we should just start a "Series 9 plot-holes discussion" thread, what with the DVD coming out next month xD I think I'll buy it just so I can tirelessly pick apart the plot and attempt to make sense of it!

I think we should start something like that.

Although I'm not sure I want to make sense of it, I must fight the temptations of the dark side!

[Saerwen]

I'm afraid I am not as good as expressing myself as others have so eloquently with their marvellous posts but here goes.

I think Lucas had a subconsious grudge against Harry. He wanted Harry to have the same experience as him, feel what he felt and Albany fulfilled that need. If Lucas had received the right support on his return he may have been mentally stronger to resist what Vaughan was doing instead of it taking him over, and his need to get away.
I think Lucas was exceptionally stressed and with Vaughan giving him the case tipped him over and this other personality of John surfaced. Lucas still managed through the turmoil in the last ep not to kill anyone, he went out of his way to keep his team safe. I don't think Lucas had any intention of killing Harry just frighten him as he did the others.
I had a friend who had a personality disorder and they would change into someone complete different, if was something you had to witness to believe, so entirely possible for a inner conflict of two personalities and it just takes something to be the last straw and it can be something you are not aware of but your subconsious registers it.
It's like Lucas couldn't get away due to his loyalty but John had not such restraints and could do anything more of less.

It was very convenient for Vaughan to have on his person for x amount of years a suitcase full of stuff relating to Lucas, who on earth hangs onto stuff that amount of time that's not yours unless you have some long term plan in the pipeline.

I think a plot holes discussion thread would be good, as there are so many of them.

[BoHenley]

A separate plot holes discussion is a great idea (fills the Spooks Forum bandwidth in 15 minutes...)

[BravoNine]

(20-01-2011 12:19 AM)Saerwen Wrote:  I had a friend who had a personality disorder and they would change into someone complete different, if was something you had to witness to believe, so entirely possible for a inner conflict of two personalities and it just takes something to be the last straw and it can be something you are not aware of but your subconsious registers it.

I would not have issues believing that Lucas would go loco because of a personality disorder, I have seen it myself and can believe in it. But the issue here is that the writers never explained it, they never came out and mention maybe Lucas/John had a history of mental illness or something.

We are apparently just suppose to assume that this man who had been loyal for the last 15 years to MI5 reverted and became evil. As strange as the human mind can be, that is a bit much for me to swallow.

(20-01-2011 12:19 AM)Saerwen Wrote:  It was very convenient for Vaughan to have on his personal for x amount of years I suitcase full of stuff relating to Lucas, who on earth hangs onto stuff that amount of time that's not yours unless you have some long term plan in the pipeline.

Another one for the endless plot-holes list.

Honestly, they should have gone with a Lucas/Vaughn love story than Lucas/Maya.....at least then the whole evil briefcase thing would make a lot more sense.....

[HellsBells]

(19-01-2011 03:28 PM)Silktie Wrote:  Remember Alex figured out that Lucas was lying when he told Harry in 9.7 that he didn't know what was in the briefcase Vaughn had him deliver to the embassy. So during the confrontation on the roof in 9.8 Harry knew that Lucas had lied about that, and the logical conclusion was that Lucas knew it was a bomb he was delivering to the embassy. Hence Harry asking him why he did it if he knew there was a bomb in the suitcase.

I was irritated by the simplicity of that scene, with Alex telling Harry they both recognised liars, what proof did Alex have, surely it was, at most, a gut feeling with no proof what so ever? If Harry had thought for one instance that Lucas was lying why let him leave. This scene was just a clumsy way for doubt to be seeded into Harry's mind, surely Harry would have needed more proof before he doubted Lucas' version of events.
Series 9 Lucas was supposed to be the accomplished liar, having fooled everyone for 15 years, but Alex listened to just one taped interview and concluded he was lying?

[BoHenley]

Another plot-hole...