[spoilers] Harry and Ruth. The Wonder Years.

[Silktie]

You make a very interesting point about Ruth. She seemed to feel a modicum of disgust towards herself for being able to cope so well with killing someone. As you say, perhaps starting to wonder whether the job - and Harry, to a certain extent - is worth losing her compassionate nature over.

What I'm wondering, is how this will impact on her evaluation of what Harry chooses to do in 9.8.

Series 9.8 Spoiler: show

If he chooses to save the many, and sacrifices her as a result, he will be doing what she rationally believes to be the right thing. And yet, I'm sure on some level she will be disappointed that he chose to sacrifice her, and perhaps see it as a sign that he doesn't love her quite enough for them to have a successful relationship in future.
If he chooses to sacrifice the many in order to save her, she will be angry at him for making the wrong choice, and maybe resenting the fact that he makes this choice now, but wasn't willing to make it when it was George and Nico's lives on the line, rather than hers. But will she on some level be touched that he is willing to sacrifice everything he believes in to save her? Or will she see it as weakness?
If he chooses neither option, but rather tries to sacrifice himself, thus saving her and the many, will she respect him for that? Or does she still believe, like she did in 5.5, that in the great scheme of things Harry is more important than her, and that he is a fool for depriving the country of his leadership in order to save a less important person such as herself?

One thing is certain, though, it's going to be an interesting parallel between Harry/Ruth and Lucas/Maya. Lucas has already made the choice to save the one, no matter what the cost thereof. Will this colour Ruth's perspective on what Harry should do?

Argh, so many questions...

[Obsession]

Couldn't agree more Silktie. Thats why I'm just waiting for (Tuesday afternoon), my Spooks day where I can enjoy it after a hard day's work.

[A Cousin]

Helluva set up isn't it? Harry is in an all or nothing situation. He either has to save Ruth and Albany OR die trying. Nothing less will do.

Series 9.8 Spoiler: show

Third option: Ruth dies. S10 = Harry goes off the rails. End of programme.

Fourth option: Lucas is successful in exchanging Ruth for Harry and Ruth saves Harry. Ruth has epiphany.

[Tea Lady]

I wouldn't be surprised if Harry hasn't got himself a set of stomach ulcers after these last few months!

Series 9.8 trailer Spoiler: show

What struck me about this trailer is how confident Ruth seems in her situation when she is talking to Lucas. She seems adamant that Harry won't give Lucas Albany, but also that he won't kill her. Maybe it's just hard for her to believe that she is actually in that situation and the reality of it all, just seems a little rediculous. I just wonder if Ruth really believed Harry or even listened to him, when he said he would save her a thousand times over. Maybe she doesn't think she is worth saving or maybe she just has so much faith in Harry (still) that she knows he will find a way out of this for them both. If last week's episode showed anything, Ruth wants to live. I can't see her giving up the fight for life so easily here either.

[HellsBells]

When Harry says he would save a thousand times over, doesn't Ruth reply 'and you'd be wrong'.

Series 9.8 trailer Spoiler: show

maybe Ruth realises that Harry may give over Albany if Lucas threatens to kill her, and she believes that would be wrong

[Naivety]

'And you'd be wrong'...

I thought at the time that it seemed out of context. Harry started that conversation by saying that Ruth hadn't forgiven him for George and Nico and that she believed he would have let her die too. As she was leaving the office he told her that he would do the same for her a thousand times over. She seemed to acknowledge that, then turn and as she left, then she said, 'and you'd be wrong'. Supposing she was commenting on the first part of the conversation. Supposing she meant that he'd be wrong for thinking she hadn't forgiven him.

That whole scene was superb, so angsty. When Harry moved around her, I thought he was going to put his arm around her, he was very close.

Darling Harry, he looked as heartbroken in this episode as when she told him back in series 5 that she couldn't go on seeing him because people were laughing about them.

[Forever Secret]

(05-11-2010 10:12 PM)Naivety Wrote:  That whole scene was superb, so angsty. When Harry moved around her, I thought he was going to put his arm around her, he was very close.

Darling Harry, he looked as heartbroken in this episode as when she told him back in series 5 that she couldn't go on seeing him because people were laughing about them.

The scene was brilliant, I thought (And hoped) he was going to put his arm around her too
Ever since Ruths return I think its been a little like that, seems like Harry has no idea what to do or how to make things better

Its a little heartbreaking to watch them, they still have feelings for each other but have to keep shutting them away,
And that scene reminds me of that moment in Series 5 too

[Tea Lady]

(05-11-2010 10:12 PM)Naivety Wrote:  'And you'd be wrong'...

I thought at the time that it seemed out of context. Harry started that conversation by saying that Ruth hadn't forgiven him for George and Nico and that she believed he would have let her die too. As she was leaving the office he told her that he would do the same for her a thousand times over. She seemed to acknowledge that, then turn and as she left, then she said, 'and you'd be wrong'. Supposing she was commenting on the first part of the conversation. Supposing she meant that he'd be wrong for thinking she hadn't forgiven him.

The thing is, why didn't Ruth stop him while Harry was giving his speech, if she thought he was wrong? Why wait until she was half out of the door, almost speaking to the corridor? In fact the way Ruth's head snaps up, during that speech, makes her look angry. The look in her eyes is one of anger. I felt she was angry that he was talking about this, almost that it was none of his business. When in fact it is his business, because Harry was there. I don't think Ruth was very convincing in letting Harry know, that it wasn't his fault. Even at the hospital at the end, she mentions again that Harry feels she blames him for George. She doesn't say he is wrong, just talks about her feelings.

For what its worth, I think Ruth needs Harry to carry some of the guilt for her, because she has so much guilt, she would fall under the weight.

[A Cousin]

(05-11-2010 10:59 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  The thing is, why didn't Ruth stop him while Harry was giving his speech, if she thought he was wrong? Why wait until she was half out of the door, almost speaking to the corridor? In fact the way Ruth's head snaps up, during that speech, makes her look angry. The look in her eyes is one of anger. I felt she was angry that he was talking about this, almost that it was none of his business. When in fact it is his business, because Harry was there. I don't think Ruth was very convincing in letting Harry know, that it wasn't his fault. Even at the hospital at the end, she mentions again that Harry feels she blames him for George. She doesn't say he is wrong, just talks about her feelings.

For what its worth, I think Ruth needs Harry to carry some of the guilt for her, because she has so much guilt, she would fall under the weight.

I love that scene. Of the three they have together in 9.7, that one is my favorite because it is so...thick.

From my perspective, there are two reasons why she doesn't stop him.

1) Harry's in boss mode and she has to listen to him. He has already frozen her out, told her she isn't allowed to question him and that he isn't really trusting her judgment at the moment. (Way to butter a girl up, Harry! ) Did you notice how he buttons his coat up before he launches into his psychological assessment of her? (Very subtle and fantastic cue by PF, BTW) Bless his pointy head, he is trying to help but in a pedantic and condescending way.

2) I think that at that point she hasn't been able to verbalize it. She hasn't made the connection. She kept staring at the picture of Nico and can't quite figure out why she can't feel anything. When she tries to call Greece, she fails to "connect" - literally.

And then in the hospital scene, after all the horribleness, she makes the connection and is able to verbalize it and he finally really just listens to her. Not only that, but challenges her to tell him what the truth is. Her truth. As she experiences it. I think she does tell him that her supposedly unresolved blame of him is not "the truth." The truth is much worse. I am not sure how much clearer she could be?

You cannot have the truth in such a way that you catch it, but only in such a way that it catches you. ~Guess Who (Must. Quote. Kierkegaard!)

[Tea Lady]

Well, I really need to watch that again. I totally loved the way Harry didn't have a second thought about saving Ruth here. Yes, I know his choices may have been different if Abany was active, but he just went and did it. He must have made a promise with himself that he wouldn't let her down again, that he would do whatever it takes, no matter what Ruth thought of him in return.

The scene when he raced into her in the warehouse room was lovely. What was not so lovely was when she confronted him in his office after. I will need to watch it again but her saying, "it was unfair of him to love her" must have really hurt him. Christ Ruth, did you not listen to Lucas? Also when Ruth most strongly said that, "Harry is on his own." Well, yes he is Ruth, and he may have just been going to his death without you telling him that you love him, because you do, and we all saw it in your face, when Lucas asked you.

Was Ruth just leaving Harry to do his job at the end when he went to meet Lucas? Leaving him to make the same sacrifice that she made 4 years ago, that he wouldn't let her make again?

So do we think Harry would have done the same thing for Ruth if Albany was active? Considering he did plan to get Albany back by getting to Maya?

I guess I just feel a little sad about H/R here. I guess someone will say it's another step forward. Another baby step. Well at least Harry has shown Ruth what type of man he is. That she does mean more to him than his own life. And the word "love" was spoken by Ruth, acknowledging Harry's love for her out in the open.

BUT......................Another 10 months to wait now to see if Harry and Ruth finally get their cottage in the country, together. Here's hoping at long bleeding last.

Pactum Serva (just about.)