[spoilers] Harry and Ruth. The Wonder Years.

[Silktie]

(19-11-2010 05:59 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  

(19-11-2010 04:57 PM)Silktie Wrote:  Speaking of season 5 and season 9, the parallel between the two is quite prominent. In both instances Harry sacrifices his career and possibly his freedom to save Ruth. And in both instances despite this very unselfish and loving act, he ends up alone.

Let's not forget that Ruth does something very similar. She sacrifices her self (literally) for her country. In S5 Ruth Evershed "dies" and in S9 Ruth Evershed...erm..."dies." Symbolically speaking. Less romantic certainly, but no less commendable. IMO, of course.

The tragedy is that the best of who they are as individuals is what keeps them from becoming a couple. If those traits didn't exist in either of them, would it have developed at all?

Oh, gawd! Now I need cheesecake....

Yeah, too true. I wonder if they'll complete the circle in season 10 and have Ruth once again sacrifice her own career in some way to save Harry? Although I can't at the moment think of a way she could do this.

Love the Dog Too Small analogy! Hee, now I have visions of Harry as a puppy, eager to please...

[DogSoSmall]

Me too. A labrador - soppy and loving, but brave and protective.

These two spend so much time sacrificing themselves for each other and for their country that they forget to stop, appreciate and show gratitude for the other one's efforts. No-one's gonna win that competition.

[Kirayuki]

They should just notice that it's a draw and get on with it.

[Forever Secret]

(21-11-2010 04:54 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  They should just notice that it's a draw and get on with it.

Ooooh Definatly

*Runs indoors from frreeeeezing weather*

I was watching S8 yesterday for a while and
I was just looking back over Series 8 and 9, it seems to me there are less friction between them regarding George and Nico in S8 than there is S9, (maybe her guilt just kicks in late) Ruth seems happier in S8 than 9, in Series 9 she's full of guilt, and seems to more or less push Harry away, although there are some really nice moments between them in both series, ahhh I don't like depressed dead inside Ruth!
It could just be they are setting up for Series 10 storylines, or character development... I dunno...
So for Series 10, I'm hoping for more of the Ruth we saw in S8 and hopefully Harry won't be losing his career... if worst comes down the worst he's going to need Ruth if this weather continues, they'll need each other just to stay warm!

*shivers in freezing weather*

[lottanyman]

(25-11-2010 07:06 AM)Forever Secret Wrote:  I was watching S8 yesterday for a while and
I was just looking back over Series 8 and 9, it seems to me there are less friction between them regarding George and Nico in S8 than there is S9, (maybe her guilt just kicks in late) Ruth seems happier in S8 than 9, in Series 9 she's full of guilt, and seems to more or less push Harry away, although there are some really nice moments between them in both series, ahhh I don't like depressed dead inside Ruth!
It could just be they are setting up for Series 10 storylines, or character development... I dunno...
So for Series 10, I'm hoping for more of the Ruth we saw in S8 and hopefully Harry won't be losing his career... if worst comes down the worst he's going to need Ruth if this weather continues, they'll need each other just to stay warm!

*shivers in freezing weather*

I think the reason for Ruth’s state of mind in S9 which is even worse than in S8 is that she realises that she got over the mourning period for George relatively quickly and that culminates in her outbreak towards Harry in the hospital in episode 7.
So in S8 she was mourning in the beginning and was gradually beginning to get better but in S9 she apparently finds that it’s too soon to feel better and feels guilty instead which is leading to some kind of depression.

For series 10 I’m also hoping that Ruth will not push Harry any further away and that she can accept how much he loves her but I’m not sure how the writers can explain a turn in her behaviour in any comprehensible way as I think they have dug quite a deep hole for her.

I would also be very much interested in knowing how the writers would have wrapped up her story if S9 had indeed been the last series. If there are two endings with regard to the Lucas/Harry story and how this would have been solved maybe there also was a different scene to end Ruth’s story…

[Silktie]

(25-11-2010 09:57 AM)lottanyman Wrote:  I think the reason for Ruth’s state of mind in S9 which is even worse than in S8 is that she realises that she got over the mourning period for George relatively quickly and that culminates in her outbreak towards Harry in the hospital in episode 7.
So in S8 she was mourning in the beginning and was gradually beginning to get better but in S9 she apparently finds that it’s too soon to feel better and feels guilty instead which is leading to some kind of depression.

This was my impression as well. There's a couple of things I'm pondering about these two at the moment.

Firstly, is Ruth's guilt over her ability to move on from George perhaps also linked to the fact that she realises she never truly loved him - because in her mind, if she'd loved him, she would not be able to move on so quickly?

Secondly, what triggered this tremendous guilt? Apparently it all started when Harry proposed, so if he hadn't, would she still have been the same towards him than she had been in season 8?

[lottanyman]

(25-11-2010 04:11 PM)Silktie Wrote:  Firstly, is Ruth's guilt over her ability to move on from George perhaps also linked to the fact that she realises she never truly loved him - because in her mind, if she'd loved him, she would not be able to move on so quickly?

Secondly, what triggered this tremendous guilt? Apparently it all started when Harry proposed, so if he hadn't, would she still have been the same towards him than she had been in season 8?

Actually I think it's quite interesting because each time I saw a new episode of S9 with some "strange behaviour" from Ruth I was quite annoyed why she was now taking steps back from her initial movement towards Harry in S8 and only thought that the writers somehow had to keep the story arc up and going but that they actually were inventing a "completely new" type of Ruth. (Hope you can understand what I mean)

But now, in view of the whole S9 I find it's typical behaviour of Ruth - there is some progression in series 8 and then Harry proposes in the beginning of S9 and this is the trigger for her to analyse things and her true feelings and of course, just like in S5 after the date with Harry she overanalyses again and all the guilt comes crashing down on her. So all in all I really think it's still the same behaviour you can recognise in Ruth.

Still, I'm very very curious how they are going to clear things up with those two in S10...

[almh]

Their relationship does seem to keep going in circles, let's hope that this breaks in series 10! (If it doesn't I will get annoyed, because I hate to say it but I'm starting to get a bit annoyed with the whole will they won't they.)

Sorry if I repeat what anyone else has said before (there are a lot of pages that I've missed reading through!) but I do think that the last episode of series 9 was beautifully ironic. Harry losing his job (possibly) to save Ruth's life, when in series 5 Ruth 'died' to save Harry's job. Beautiful, beautiful. I have to say, I did like that (perhaps unintentional) piece of irony. And I know we all said this after the last episode of series 8, but next series they really have got to progress a bit further!!!

[Forever Secret]

(25-11-2010 04:11 PM)Silktie Wrote:  

(25-11-2010 09:57 AM)lottanyman Wrote:  I think the reason for Ruth’s state of mind in S9 which is even worse than in S8 is that she realises that she got over the mourning period for George relatively quickly and that culminates in her outbreak towards Harry in the hospital in episode 7.
So in S8 she was mourning in the beginning and was gradually beginning to get better but in S9 she apparently finds that it’s too soon to feel better and feels guilty instead which is leading to some kind of depression.

This was my impression as well. There's a couple of things I'm pondering about these two at the moment.

Firstly, is Ruth's guilt over her ability to move on from George perhaps also linked to the fact that she realises she never truly loved him - because in her mind, if she'd loved him, she would not be able to move on so quickly?

Secondly, what triggered this tremendous guilt? Apparently it all started when Harry proposed, so if he hadn't, would she still have been the same towards him than she had been in season 8?

After thinking about it a little more , it's my impression too.
I agree with that aswell, Ruths guilt coming from the fact she could move on so quickly, and in S9 she went backwards in a way. I think the proposal may have reminded Ruth that while they'd been close in S8, she was reminded how much Harry loves her, and thats another thing she feels guilty about, maybe she feels she doesn't deserve to be loved by him because she feels it all her fault that George was killed and she blames herself for it all, I don't think she really ever blamed Harry, she blamed herself but the guilt became so much she needed someone else to lay it on... and that was Harry.
I do think Ruth loved George, but there was a major difference in her affections for George and her affection for Harry, it's like she loved George, but could never be 'in love' with him, she never loved him the same way she loves Harry...
I picked that up when Ruth and Harry were being held in 8.1, Ruth never says she loves George, she just says that he's a good man and when Harry asks "Do you love him?" she refuses to tell him, maybe then she realises after seeing Harry again after so long she never stopped loving him ...

I'm also hoping in Series 10 that she doesn't push him away, the more I think about it though, the more I think Harry might push Ruth away to try and protect her, after all if they are digging into his past a lot of unwanted attention could be set on Harry...there's bound to be some pretty .... bad stuff buried in his past...

(25-11-2010 06:12 PM)almh Wrote:  Their relationship does seem to keep going in circles, let's hope that this breaks in series 10! (If it doesn't I will get annoyed, because I hate to say it but I'm starting to get a bit annoyed with the whole will they won't they.)

I hope this breaks in S10 as well! Another series of angst and will they won't they? It'll drive me up the wall!
The 'Will they, Won't they?' thing works... but only up to a point, and then it just gets to become a repeat of what we've already seen... and it gets a little annoying... everyone know their feelings for each other... they just have to say it, admit it to each other and to themselves,... after so long, they at least deserve some kind of happy ending!

[lwhite53]

(25-11-2010 06:12 PM)almh Wrote:  Sorry if I repeat what anyone else has said before (there are a lot of pages that I've missed reading through!) but I do think that the last episode of series 9 was beautifully ironic. Harry losing his job (possibly) to save Ruth's life, when in series 5 Ruth 'died' to save Harry's job. Beautiful, beautiful. I have to say, I did like that (perhaps unintentional) piece of irony.

Nice ironic parallel there. Hopefully, s10 will make it clear (to Ruth) that what Harry did in giving Albany away is exactly the same thing she did in giving Mani the location of the uranium, and it was for the same reason -- to save someone they cared about. Interesting that in both cases, the "weapon" wasn't viable (Albany was a fake and the uranium wasn't where Ruth said it was).