[spoilers] Harry and Ruth. The Wonder Years.

[Forever Secret]

(28-11-2010 01:08 AM)Kirayuki Wrote:  

(28-11-2010 12:54 AM)binkie Wrote:  

(27-11-2010 06:09 PM)Forever Secret Wrote:  Ahhh yes Gene and Alex... probably tied as my favourite TV couple at the moment along side Ruth and Harry... lets hope Ruth and Harry get a happier ending than Gene and Alex did though... it's been what 5 months now? I'm still angry at the ending

Isn’t that interesting?! I thought the end of Ashes to Ashes was genuinely emotionally satisfying – it was what it had to be, and it was properly and sensitively retconned to prove itself. Not a happy ending exactly, but a suitable one. Perhaps this bodes ill for my cheesecake credentials

Nope. Your cheescake credentials are un-affected if mine aren't.

I'm a huge ashes fan (Gene/Alex fan included there) and i was totally satisfied with the ending in terms of their relationship. I'd class it as almost 'bittersweet'.

I've also long batted for the camp that thinks a bittersweet ending for Harry and Ruth would also be acceptable, but only if done well... like 5.5 was. (However with the way these new writers are going i am sat here crossing my fingers already).
This is not to say i wouldn't prefer a happy ending.

However I think i'll find that in the end, if it makes sense and is wrapped up well, i will probably be satisfied. Here's hoping.

Ahhh the ending overall I thought was pretty good and emotionally satisfying in terms of the story, it was just Alex's ending I didn't like, after 3 years of good drama and she was left with nothing, she lost her daughter, she lost Gene and she lost her life... I was a little depressed. It was more bitter than sweet for Alex,
But it does remind me now a little of 5.5, where Ruth has to leave, bittersweet, and come to think of it very much like Ashes.. they'd been on a date, and had their moments, and neither of them had taken action to move forward on the relationship... only G/a was a little more fiery and H/R is more sweet...
I think it was a good idea for her to leave and come back, she developed as a character even though we didn't see it, and for Ruth I think that was a good thing, she returns seemingly a new person and then when she see's Harry again when she returns to the Grid, it's the Ruth everyone knows again

I'm thinking for S10 perhaps Ruth actually listened to Lucas in 9.8, when he told her to be brave, he was right, she needs to be brave, take a chance, or it'll pass her by

(28-11-2010 12:57 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  Yeh, I agree. Look at Ruth's reaction when Harry praised her about her "wonderful qualities" on their one and only date. The words Harry used were lovely and heartfelt. Ruth looked so uncomfortable, even to the point where she looked like she wanted to just bolt from him.

We all moaned at Harry about the quality of his proposal in 9.1, but surely the evidence of Harry's past experience with Ruth, is that praise and opening your heart to her, just makes her uncomfortable and makes her want to run a mile.

Can you imagine Ruth's reaction if Harry had said, "you are the love of my life, you are my heart, you are the most beautiful thing in this world." Christ, Ruth probably would have ran and left him all alone leaning on that fence. I don't think Ruth's answer to Harry's proposal would have been any different, if it had been stated in a different way or on a different occasion.

I guess Ruth is just one of those characters though, she's happy about most things but it terrifies that Harry loves her, perhaps because she'd never felt that way about anyone else, she's very shy around the subject,
She's fine around Harry when its based around work but when it becomes personal, she gets nervous, which in S10 is something I'd like her to overcome...
I would love for them just to admit their feelnigs to each other even if they don't become a couple... I could imagine them in a near death situation together and alone, then it would a "now or never" situation

[Kirayuki]

(28-11-2010 02:01 PM)Forever Secret Wrote:  

(28-11-2010 12:57 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  Yeh, I agree. Look at Ruth's reaction when Harry praised her about her "wonderful qualities" on their one and only date. The words Harry used were lovely and heartfelt. Ruth looked so uncomfortable, even to the point where she looked like she wanted to just bolt from him.

We all moaned at Harry about the quality of his proposal in 9.1, but surely the evidence of Harry's past experience with Ruth, is that praise and opening your heart to her, just makes her uncomfortable and makes her want to run a mile.

Can you imagine Ruth's reaction if Harry had said, "you are the love of my life, you are my heart, you are the most beautiful thing in this world." Christ, Ruth probably would have ran and left him all alone leaning on that fence. I don't think Ruth's answer to Harry's proposal would have been any different, if it had been stated in a different way or on a different occasion.

I guess Ruth is just one of those characters though, she's happy about most things but it terrifies that Harry loves her, perhaps because she'd never felt that way about anyone else, she's very shy around the subject,
She's fine around Harry when its based around work but when it becomes personal, she gets nervous, which in S10 is something I'd like her to overcome...
I would love for them just to admit their feelings to each other even if they don't become a couple... I could imagine them in a near death situation together and alone, then it would a "now or never" situation

Yep. Agreed. That 'near death, now or never' situation is one i hoped it wouldn't come too... however if that's what it takes then it should bloody be done!

Ruth has always had trouble taking 'direct' praise for her rather than her abilities. If someone points out how good she is at her job or similar she's fine, it's like you said, just when it hits the 'personal' territory.

This might have something to do with the fact that she's been alone most of her life. (Going to boarding school after her dad died and throwing herself into her studies... not being lucky in relationships...) she just isn't used to it and is scared.

Hopefully she will be pulled out of it for series 10 with the immediate threat to Harry and Lucas telling her to be brave as one of the last things he said to her.

[BravoNine]

(28-11-2010 02:35 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  Hopefully she will be pulled out of it for series 10 with the immediate threat to Harry and Lucas telling her to be brave as one of the last things he said to her.

Let's hope! I've been poking at the screen so many times re-watching 9.8 just hoping that Ruth will finally listen to Lucas (as magically he is finally giving some actual good advice!), I was poking so hard that I think I broke my computer screen.....

Come on Ruth, be brave! Out of the few people still alive in this line of business, you deserve happiness the most! Just go for it!!

[Kirayuki]

I think she may take on board what he said more because of the Harry in danger thing.
Despite what she may think she's actually quite protective of Harry. Lucas saying 'be brave, be selfish for once' is almost too apt considering the up-coming investigation.

Also, Ruth is someone who is always affected heavily by the death of colleagues and she tries to do what she can for them in her own way.

Tom- She called Adam Tom by mistake (Which is fine as he didn't die).
Danny - She stayed with until they had to take him away. Then refused to leave his funeral until Harry begged her.
Jo - Stayed at work after her death probably partly due to her memory. (Like Jo did with Adam)
Ros - Read at her funeral and told Harry it was not the right time to be proposing as it was her funeral.
Lucas - Well we can only hope she takes on board what he said.

I don't think she'd just sit there and let Harry go to the dogs even if he had upset her recently as he fell of the pedestal she kept him on.

[Forever Secret]

Certainly, Ruth always fears for Harry when there's danger anywhere near him, like in 5.1 where it was Juliet that was hurt, Ruth's first thoughts were for Harry, same in 9.8 where Harry goes to the roof to meet Lucas, she's scared of losing him ,but she doesn't stop him either, because it's his choice and he wants to go.

Ruth's very sensitive bless her She gets affected a lot by death, and she's probably lost more than any other Spooks character, she lost George, Nico and her life in Cyprus as well as losing Harry in 5.5 when she's forced to leave and losing Tom, Fiona, Danny, Adam, Ros and Jo and now Lucas as colleagues... poor Ruth


I agree, she'd never let him go down, even if he'd upset her badly, she could never let Harry be in danger, she cares about him way too much, I think she'll be there fighting his corner in S10 even if it's very quietly

[Kirayuki]

Oh dear... i just had the idea crop into my head that she'd save Harry even if it killed her.
In that case I'd hope Harry could counter it in a satisfactory way which saved both of them...

[A Cousin]

Random thoughts after reading today's posts:

I don't think Harry is any more likely to make a big sloppy speech declaring his love for her any more than she would be able to listen to it and tearfully profess hers as well. Their actions show it. Ruth has acknowledged that Harry loves her. There is no doubt about that now. The only thing missing is Ruth's acknowledgment of her feelings for him and sex. If the sex never factors into it, that would be fine, IMO. Their connection is played out on so many other planes: intellectual, philosophical, ethical, etc. The very reason I like the story of their relationship is that it is devout and pragmatic without being romantic or sentimental. It is not a young relationship. It is a mature relationship. It is what the Honeymoon turns into if you are lucky.

I am not sure that Ruth's holding back is completely her underestimating herself (although that may be part of it) but rather, her being painfully aware that she will always be Harry's Achilles Heel. And he, hers. I think she is trying to protect Harry. And herself. And the thousands of people it is their duty to protect.

As for them getting together and simply being blissfully happy - life sucks sometimes. Love doesn't always conquer all. Timing sucks. Hearts get broken. Part of me wants the happy and sentimental ending for two characters so finely portrayed that I feel like they are friends, and the other side of me could see where it could go horribly wrong or at least fizzle out once they both fully accept each other for what they really are - warts and all. Either way, there is potential for some good stories.

I am not going to speculate. I am just going to wait and see where it goes. I think where it goes will depend greatly on whether it is renewed for an S11 and whether or not PF and NW renew their contracts into S11.

And a small epiphany in re-watching 9.8 with Ruth's line "it was unfair of you to love me." She had just referred to all those who had died before. I think she is referring to Ros, Jo, Adam, Zaf, Colin and Danny. I wonder if she is not saying that it is unfair to her for him to love her, but it was unfair to them. Thoughts?

[Kirayuki]

(28-11-2010 04:55 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  And a small epiphany in re-watching 9.8 with Ruth's line "it was unfair of you to love me." She had just referred to all those who had died before. I think she is referring to Ros, Jo, Adam, Zaf, Colin and Danny. I wonder if she is not saying that it is unfair to her for him to love her, but it was unfair to them. Thoughts?

I thought she was referring to them too. She may have been hinting it was unfair to her to be removed from the situation they'd all faced... however i think that the view of it being unfair to them is what i picked up on when i saw it. Especially considering my earlier comment about how much Ruth respects and concerns for her old colleagues.

[harrbd]

Sorry to go back to the Script again (well noticed by the way) but I can't imagine Harry saying that about Ros (burnt bits) to Ruth in a million years. It worries me that the writers thought he would. I assume that PF changed the words to something a bit more Harry like when he was filming the scene.
When Harry said to Ruth "Ever feel you can't go on" I think he means "Ever feel you can't go on with these lines". When Ruth replies "Can't go on, must go on" I think she means "We must put up with it, think of the fans and the audience figures." !!!

Unfortunately, although PF may be able to change a few words here and there I doubt whether he can change whole scripts. Wouldn't it be better if PF and NW wrote the next series !

[BravoNine]

(28-11-2010 05:20 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  

(28-11-2010 04:55 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  And a small epiphany in re-watching 9.8 with Ruth's line "it was unfair of you to love me." She had just referred to all those who had died before. I think she is referring to Ros, Jo, Adam, Zaf, Colin and Danny. I wonder if she is not saying that it is unfair to her for him to love her, but it was unfair to them. Thoughts?

I thought she was referring to them too. She may have been hinting it was unfair to her to be removed from the situation they'd all faced... however i think that the view of it being unfair to them is what i picked up on when i saw it. Especially considering my earlier comment about how much Ruth respects and concerns for her old colleagues.

To me, it felt like Ruth was saying that everyday they put their own people on the front lines and everyday they stand there in defense of the Queen and Country and can be offered up as sacrifices for the greater good, and Harry has been willing to take the risks and consequences losing any of his agents, but he didn't with Ruth, and to Ruth, in that moment, it was unfair of Harry to make her different than any of the others who have given their lives to this service, to make her anymore special than those who have died. I think she was meaning that it was rather an insult to their memories to single her out to be special enough to be saved but the others were not.