[spoilers] Harry and Ruth. The Wonder Years.

[watchstrap]

(27-11-2010 11:12 PM)watchstrap Wrote:  Most of my reasons for wanting them to take the plunge have already been mentioned, but I don't think anyone has mentioned their intellectual compatability. They know all the same cultural references, one starts quoting something and the other finishes it off. I don't imagine Ruth did this with George, in fact she probably had to hide that side of herself away.

Binkie wrote (but I erased the clever quote reference)

I agree entirely on the point of intellectual compatibility. This is an overlooked element in TV relationships. It is too often the case that viewers are expected to accept that two characters are in an emotional/romantic relationship simply because the script says this is so. The match (whatever form it might take) between Harry and Ruth is much more satisfying as a result of this extra little detail. I do wonder why you think Ruth would have had to keep her intellect hidden from George. Did he seem like that much of a philistine?

Yes, he did! I had a bit of an irrational dislike of him, probably because he just wasn't Harry. I do think that part of being true to her legend in Cyprus would have meant that Ruth hid a large part of herself away, less to explain.

[expat]

Watchstrap, I think Ruth has in the past either hid her intellect away, or been disappointed by what it attracts. I'm thinking of her brilliant but broken friend Andrew of the ill-fated carbonara dinner, an intellectual match but not one of principle. Someone else mentioned Harry's lovely speech during the season 5 date-- "principled, but not foolish, and not naive."

[binkie]

Anyone who recognises me from the thread-which-must-not-be-named-because-Kirayuki-has-had-just-about-enough-quite-frankly will know that I have an apparently all-consuming inability to abandon the detail in anything. So, at the risk of outstaying my very generous welcome in this hospitable thread...

(28-11-2010 12:13 PM)DogSoSmall Wrote:  I'm really struggling to understand why so many people would find a satisfactory, romantic ending for Harry and Ruth such a stretch of credibility.

I don’t know that it’s necessarily the case that anyone finds the prospect of such a conclusion a stretch of credibility exactly. I just wonder why it is that this is such a popular possible conclusion. I don’t deny that Harry and Ruth are, individually, well-drawn and well-played characters. I don’t deny that Harry and Ruth love one another. I question (but do not object to) the romantic conclusion on two fronts:

1. Is it something we want simply because we have been trained to want it over the course of the narrative as far as it relates to these two characters? Does the narrative tell us that romance is their destiny, so it must happen because there is no real alternative for them? I wonder whether Spooks has embraced the relative immediacy of the familiarity of romance because it has allowed itself no space in its narrative structure for an alternative in which Harry and Ruth could endure as lifelong companions without falling into one another’s arms
2. Is the reality of the relationship between Harry and Ruth to be found more in terms of emotional distance than it is in terms of their undeniable intellectual compatibility and the thread of their shared experiences? Is Ruth right about difficult dinner parties and the moral consequences of love in the singular environment in which the two of them operate on a professional level?

You suggest:

(28-11-2010 12:13 PM)DogSoSmall Wrote:  For me, the only reason that Ruth is backing off is that in spite of her adoration of Harry, she has so little sense of her own worth that she can't believe that if they were together that Harry would not be hugely disappointed in her, start to think as little of her as she does of herself... To me this is all about Ruth believing that she is worthy of Harry, and once she can accept that, I can see absolutely no reason on earth why they should not both be together and be ecstatically happy together.

This is a well-considered evaluation. However – and please remember, I am occupying something of the role of devil’s advocate here – why should we suppose that Harry’s future happiness should be predicated on the outcome of a relationship in which he is required constantly to prop up the fragile ego of the object of his affection? Should we not want for Harry to be in a relationship of equals? Or do you think that, in her way, Ruth is a fillip for Harry’s ego also as she reminds him he has the capacity to be human (this seems to be the quality he believes to be most at risk from his job)? Is this the nature of their equality?

I think this is a really urgent point that could have been easily missed:

(28-11-2010 04:55 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  Ruth has acknowledged that Harry loves her. There is no doubt about that now. The only thing missing is Ruth's acknowledgment of her feelings for him... she will always be Harry's Achilles Heel. And he, hers. I think she is trying to protect Harry. And herself. And the thousands of people it is their duty to protect.

It was one of the major criticisms made of the movie of The English Patient (less so the book) that the moral foundation of its quality as a tragic Romance (capital R intentional) only worked if the viewer accepted that love is a legitimate excuse for every moral concession, including betrayal and treason. I like your interpretation of Ruth’s unwillingness to be the pivot of moral compromise in cases of national security.


I hope this thread will have me back, but I am returning now to my natural home, where I will write something about tattoos

[Kirayuki]

(28-11-2010 11:27 PM)binkie Wrote:  Anyone who recognises me from the thread-which-must-not-be-named-because-Kirayuki-has-had-just- about-enough-quite-frankly will know that I have an apparently all-consuming inability to abandon the detail in anything. So, at the risk of outstaying my very generous welcome in this hospitable thread...
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I hope this thread will have me back, but I am returning now to my natural home, where I will write something about tattoos

Haha. I'm sorry about that. Does it show terribly? I don't mean to annoy anyone or put them off conversation at all though, so sorry if i'm making metaphorical waves.

Of course you can stay here. You are a valued member of the community and your insights are intruiging. We in this thread are of a hospitable nature.
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I just noticed that Griddlepop's new H/R video makes a point without it meaning to. Series 9 was so very painful for Harry in terms of his relationship with Ruth. (I know this is sort of an obvious observation and that we've already picked up on it, but the video really emphasizes the fact. I recommend watching it).
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I've also noticed that on the top of my wishlist fo next season is for there to be an end to the 'Will they/Wont they?' No matter how much i love them, (and i know that the 'will/wont they' works), i just want it to go somewhere now.
Series 9 was all about exploration of each others actual selves for them and so i think that next series should be the point where they just make their possibly new positions clear to each other and move on from it.

The bush is now well and truly beaten. There really is no more bush to beat around.

[binkie]

(28-11-2010 11:53 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  

(28-11-2010 11:27 PM)binkie Wrote:  Anyone who recognises me from the thread-which-must-not-be-named-because-Kirayuki-has-had-just- about-enough-quite-frankly will know that I have an apparently all-consuming inability to abandon the detail in anything. So, at the risk of outstaying my very generous welcome in this hospitable thread...
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I hope this thread will have me back, but I am returning now to my natural home, where I will write something about tattoos

Haha. I'm sorry about that. Does it show terribly? I don't mean to annoy anyone or put them off conversation at all though, so sorry if i'm making metaphorical waves.

Ha! I do, in fact, feel your pain. I had a similar problem myself a couple of years ago with another show, the forums of which seemed to be locked in a permanent discussion of a particularly redundant element of the narrative.

(28-11-2010 11:53 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  The bush is now well and truley beaten. There really is no more bush to beat around.

This actually made me laugh out loud. And at this time of night too

[JHyde]

I'm confused as to how many of you think that there is still a 'will they/won't they' going on.

At least for now, it's over. Ruth said no.

[Silktie]

Ah yes, but did she really really mean it?

[BravoNine]

(29-11-2010 07:13 AM)JHyde Wrote:  I'm confused as to how many of you think that there is still a 'will they/won't they' going on.

At least for now, it's over. Ruth said no.

I wouldn't think there is the "will they/won't they" thing if they would stop giving each those longing looks or pensive expressions.

But seeing as how they can't stop giving those looks or making those faces, I will probably continue to think that there is a chance....

[Tea Lady]

(29-11-2010 07:13 AM)JHyde Wrote:  I'm confused as to how many of you think that there is still a 'will they/won't they' going on.

At least for now, it's over. Ruth said no.

Ha, come on, everybody knows that when a woman says no, she really means yes (im not much of a feminist I grant you.)

IMO it's still not over because Ruth lied about her reasons. Poorly made excuses are not hard to see through.

As for whether they can get away with another series like they have with S9, who knows. It will depend on the writing and as I have said before, whether this is the last series. I didn't think they could get away with it for S9, and I think they did.

[Forever Secret]

(29-11-2010 08:21 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  I wouldn't think there is the "will they/won't they" thing if they would stop giving each those longing looks or pensive expressions.

But seeing as how they can't stop giving those looks or making those faces, I will probably continue to think that there is a chance....

Oh there's Always a chance

But that's where my hope lies too, if there was no chance at all they wouldn't keep giving each other those looks and they wouldn't have those little moments in each episode
There's always a chance... somewhere, I shall continue to think there's one too


As for Ruth, she said no to marrying Harry, and she gave a reason, they don't have to be married to be together their feelings won't change just because she won't marry him

(29-11-2010 08:43 AM)Tea Lady Wrote:  Ha, come on, everybody knows that when a woman says no, she really means yes (im not much of a feminist I grant you.)

IMO it's still not over because Ruth lied about her reasons. Poorly made excuses are not hard to see through.

As for whether they can get away with another series like they have with S9, who knows. It will depend on the writing and as I have said before, whether this is the last series. I didn't think they could get away with it for S9, and I think they did.

Oh yes

I don't think she lied, although she was searching for excuses rather than reasons, and Harry's timing just isn't brilliant a lot of the time
I have a feeling S10 will be the last series though, if it is, It would nice for some closure on their relationship, hopefully (And knowing my luck they probably will now) hopefully neither of them will die
*Sneezes and wonders back to bed*