[spoilers] Harry and Ruth. The Wonder Years.

[Tea Lady]

(16-12-2010 03:36 PM)DogSoSmall Wrote:  Where do I find these fanfics? I haven't seen any that fill in the 48 hours on here.

Have you not discovered ff.net yet DogSoSmall?? It's an Aladdins Cave of H/R stuff/fluff. I think we have a thread on the SF somewhere recommending certain HR fics.

http://www.fanfiction.net/tv/MI-5_Spooks/

[A Cousin]

(16-12-2010 03:54 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  

(16-12-2010 03:36 PM)DogSoSmall Wrote:  Where do I find these fanfics? I haven't seen any that fill in the 48 hours on here.

Have you not discovered ff.net yet DogSoSmall?? It's an Aladdins Cave of H/R stuff/fluff. I think we have a thread on the SF somewhere recommending certain HR fics.

http://www.fanfiction.net/tv/MI-5_Spooks/

Tried to PM. But TL beat me to it, so no worries!

There are some really talented writers on ff.net DogSoSmall. Some of it is a bit ridiculous, IMHO, but always fun and entertaining. It has been VERY active lately. Christmas fluff abounds!

[Silktie]

(16-12-2010 03:14 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  Hmmm.... One to ponder re: Ruth feeling betrayed (Oh, THAT word again!) because Harry denied her her penance for her decisions. (If I am interpreting what you are saying correctly?) I think another level involved is that, for her, he sullied the memory of those who had died before her by cheating what she saw as her fate. Problem is, he is her fate. At least he will be as long as they are working together.

OK - I'll shuddup now. I feel like I am rambling again and not making much sense.

It makes perfect sense, and yes, you interpreted my ramblings correctly. You could be right about her thinking he sullied the memory of the others that died before her, but for me there is a huge difference: Harry was not in a position to bargain for the others' lives like he was in the situation with Ruth. He was not in a position to trade anything to save Adam, or Ros, or Danny for that matter. I therefore think that Ruth is wrong in her analysis here, because she is comparing apples with pears.

[Forever Secret]

Good point
Adam, Ros, Jo, Danny... anyone else who died, Harry didn't have a choice in the matter to save them if he was given something to bargain with things could've been a lot different...losing members of the team is difficult for him, but they made their choice, he didn't make it for them and there was nothing he could do to stop their deaths
He was given a choice to save Ruth, and he chose to save her, but then again, would he have done the same for any other member of the team, Beth, Demitri? If they had been in Ruth's position would Harry have given up Albany then to save their lives even though he knew it was a fake? Would he have given up his career for them?
I guess they would take that into consideration during the inquiry, can Harry continue to work at MI5 if there are going to be questions over his personal life conflicting with his decision making?

[DogSoSmall]

Knowing how Harry has changed over this series, and the way every death is now weighing heavy on him (including the deaths of the unknown 9 in 9.1), I do think he would have made the same decision for Beth or Dmitri. The file was a fake - harmless. No-one would die because the Chinese got their hands on it. In my head I think of the file as completely worthless, so don't hold much truck with the whole "it was still a state secret" argument. The difficulty would be knowing whether that would be a good thing to admit to or not at the enquiry. Would the powers that be trust him more if he said he would have given up that state secret to save any life, or would it be better for him if they thought the circumstances were exceptional? And it they thought it was all because of Ruth, how would she be able to keep her job if he kept his?

By the way, thanks for the help with the fanfic. I'm not really a fanfic person. Any I've come across before, I have read the first sentence and then run screaming for the hills. In the case of Harry and Ruth there are a couple of reasons that I'm quite enjoying some of them. Firstly, I'm feeling that the writers may well not come to a satisfying conclusion for Harry and Ruth, so I need to get one where I can. Secondly, I've found that Spooks fans are generally more intelligent than the average fanficker and therefore can write rather well!

[Tea Lady]

(17-12-2010 09:23 AM)DogSoSmall Wrote:  Knowing how Harry has changed over this series, and the way every death is now weighing heavy on him (including the deaths of the unknown 9 in 9.1), I do think he would have made the same decision for Beth or Dmitri. The file was a fake - harmless. No-one would die because the Chinese got their hands on it. In my head I think of the file as completely worthless, so don't hold much truck with the whole "it was still a state secret" argument. The difficulty would be knowing whether that would be a good thing to admit to or not at the enquiry. Would the powers that be trust him more if he said he would have given up that state secret to save any life, or would it be better for him if they thought the circumstances were exceptional? And it they thought it was all because of Ruth, how would she be able to keep her job if he kept his?

By the way, thanks for the help with the fanfic. I'm not really a fanfic person. Any I've come across before, I have read the first sentence and then run screaming for the hills. In the case of Harry and Ruth there are a couple of reasons that I'm quite enjoying some of them. Firstly, I'm feeling that the writers may well not come to a satisfying conclusion for Harry and Ruth, so I need to get one where I can. Secondly, I've found that Spooks fans are generally more intelligent than the average fanficker and therefore can write rather well!

I'm not so sure Albany was so harmless though. As a member of the public (and if this was real ,) what Harry did, has put us all at a greater risk of attack from our enemies. In terms of Britain's defence, especially with all the military cuts lately, we really do rely on the Cousins for our defence, in the event of a large scale attack. Albany gave the UK the ability to defend itself and to still show itself as a global superpower. Harry ruined all of that. I therefore do not believe that Harry would have done the same thing for Dimitri or Beth. This was something that Harry would only have done for Ruth. I believe that it was as simple as Harry promising himself that he would never let her go again, no matter what. If Albany had been real, I think he would have done the same thing, but had a fake passport ready and perhaps one for Ruth as well.

DogSoSmall, if you have not read "Secrets" on fanfic, can I recommend this. It's the mother of all H/R stuff IMO. Start at Part 1.

[Silktie]

Yeah, I agree TL. It wasn't harmless. The main mitigating factor for me, though, is the fact that he didn't just give it away. He had a plan to save Ruth AND get the file back before Lucas could give it to the Chinese. It wasn't a question of just giving it away with no thought given to the consequences or anything else. In the sense that there was a strategy to get Albany back, I think Harry may actually have taken the risk had it been someone other than Ruth that was being threatened by Lucas.

And remember, even when Lucas saw through Harry's plan and kept Ruth's location back until he'd gotten himself and Maya free from those waiting at the hotel, Harry had another plan - in sending Alex to speak to Maya and giving her a tracker, so that they could pounce on him as soon as he gave up Ruth's location. It was just bad luck that none of these plans worked, but they were in place and that should count for something.

I don't see why Ruth's position should be in danger if Harry gets off and continues in his post. There is no rule that says they may not date each other, and she can be used against Harry whether she works there or not. She may, in fact, be an easier target if she isn't working inside the Grid with all its security measures in place.

Something else to remember, is that both times Ruth has been used against Harry, it has been by people inside the system, ie Mace and now Lucas. She has never been used against him by those defined as enemies of the state. So, can they blame Harry and Ruth for failures within the system? It seems that, as long as the Security Services can get their house in order, the threat Ruth poses to Harry's position is virtually nil.

[Tea Lady]

(17-12-2010 10:57 AM)Silktie Wrote:  Something else to remember, is that both times Ruth has been used against Harry, it has been by people inside the system, ie Mace and now Lucas. She has never been used against him by those defined as enemies of the state. So, can they blame Harry and Ruth for failures within the system? It seems that, as long as the Security Services can get their house in order, the threat Ruth poses to Harry's position is virtually nil.

LOL!! Silktie, just noticed your Harry avatar ! That's great

That is a very good point Silktie, about Ruth being used by the system. I guess it helps that she is a desk officer. If she was a field officer, she would present more of a risk to Harry as her face and name would be more widely known.

[A Cousin]

Silkties avatar is almost as good as yours TL! Almost.

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(17-12-2010 10:11 AM)Tea Lady Wrote:  I'm not so sure Albany was so harmless though. As a member of the public (and if this was real ,) what Harry did, has put us all at a greater risk of attack from our enemies. In terms of Britain's defence, especially with all the military cuts lately, we really do rely on the Cousins for our defence, in the event of a large scale attack. Albany gave the UK the ability to defend itself and to still show itself as a global superpower.

Doesn't Towers mention something about the UK's intellectual property being it only defense left? So it seems to me that Harry giving away something that falls under the umbrella of intellectual property is a slightly higher breach. I never really thought about that. It seemed relatively harmless to me.

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(17-12-2010 10:57 AM)Silktie Wrote:  Something else to remember, is that both times Ruth has been used against Harry, it has been by people inside the system, ie Mace and now Lucas. She has never been used against him by those defined as enemies of the state.

Don't give them any ideas!!!!!

This is one of the few ways I don't feel I can defend Ruth's position about just being with Harry. If she is holding him at arms length to protect either of them from any pain that may occur if something happens to either or both of them, the damage is done. It will suck whether they are together or not. But this is why I question whether or not she actually wants to be with him - for whatever ridiculous reason she may have in our eyes - she has them.

[DogSoSmall]

Very good points. I hadn't looked at it that way, in terms of intellectual property, and the importance of the file does make sense in that context. Quite right too that Harry didn't just "give Albany away". The sad thing is, if he had had Lucas on the team and they were fighting someone else, they would probably have succeeded in getting the file back. Harry was used to having Lucas/Ros/Adam carrying out his plans and with their experience they would probably have succeeded. And he wouldn't normally have been fighting someone who knew him so well.

Absolutely love Silktie's avatar! Now I'm off to find Secrets!