[spoilers] Harry and Ruth. The Wonder Years.

[Byatil]

I think the characters would have known Harry and Ruth had a slightly different relationship just by being around them. Harry and Ruth do have quite a few scenes 'alone' with one another, which is something the other characters would probably have picked up on, along with the way Harry reacted to Ruth's kidnapping in 9.8. It does seem odd for them to suddenly 'realise' the relationship between Harry and Ruth; but perhaps it never seemed appropriate to mention before? The theme of love and relationships is quite a strong one throughout S9, so whilst it is probably just a nice way of slotting the H+R relationship into place, it doesn't seem totally unbelievable that the rest of the team would notice.

It seems to me there has always been a bit of a 'will they/won't they' situation with H+R, and as you say... we don't know what occurs off-screen

I think their feelings for each other are noticeable enough for the other characters to pick up on, but subtle enough for them to realise that it would not be appropriate to mention them. Nevermind the compromising position Harry or Ruth could be left in if news were to spread about their feelings for one another.

[lottanyman]

I think the characters, at least Harry and Ruth, have very well been aware of their love for a long time. Harry wanted to say it just before Ruth had to leave in series 5 and Ruth knew what he wanted to say but didn't let him because that would have made things even harder (for her or for them both I'm not sure). So this time Ruth just spit the word out directly in her anger over Albany.

As for Lucas knowing about this or sensing they love each other, this may be something to ponder if other people on the Grid could really know about as Harry and Ruth always tried to hide it but otherwise in the beginning of series 5 also Juliet had been aware of Ruth being in love with Harry and was asking him if he'd also loved her.

[Tea Lady]

I got the impression that Dimitri knew of H/R love (with that having been explored in the scenes that must have been cut between Ruth and Dimitri) but Beth didn't. Hence her reaction "how does that get him closer to Albany?" She didn't seem to get it, that Lucas was using Ruth to get at Harry.

The embarrassed look on Tariq's face though and the wringing of his hands, I thought meant that he got the H/R love. As for Lucas, Ros probably helped him there, with several comments she made in S8. Lucas may also have had access to the Cotterdam files with his level A clearance. He seemed to know that Ruth had sacrificed herself for Harry with his comment "you've done enough."

[Byatil]

I've not watched S1-6, but I did see a cute clip on youtube where Ruth asks Harry to come to her house, and he thinks she's inviting him over for dinner and seems completely bewildered by it all xD I think little things like that are very telling.

Ruth is obviously fairly confused in terms of her emotions - in 8.1, Harry asks her if she loves George, and she replies "I'm not willing to discuss my feelings towards him" or something to a similar effect, which to me always implied that she still had strong feelings towards Harry. She then goes on to call him a "heartless bastard" as Harry is willing to have her step-son killed. These feelings must be extremely conflicting for her. Whilst she obviously has feelings for Harry, she always holds herself back - for fear of getting hurt? She knows how ruthless Harry can be (pun not intended!) and I think that scares her, as a woman who always considers the morality of any situation the team is placed in.

I think it's believable that the team would pick up on their relationship, being people who are apparently good at observing and analysing things without gossiping about them. As we are supposed to believe that Lucas is conflicted with his own feelings of love throughout S9, I think it makes sense that he would be looking for 'answers' in other people's relationships - he justifies his selfishness by telling Ruth to "be selfish for once".

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(15-01-2011 04:07 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  I got the impression that Dimitri knew of H/R love (with that having been explored in the scenes that must have been cut between Ruth and Dimitri) but Beth didn't. Hence her reaction "how does that get him closer to Albany?" She didn't seem to get it, that Lucas was using Ruth to get at Harry.

The embarrassed look on Tariq's face though and the wringing of his hands, I thought meant that he got the H/R love. As for Lucas, Ros probably helped him there, with several comments she made in S8. Lucas may also have had access to the Cotterdam files with his level A clearance. He seemed to know that Ruth had sacrificed herself for Harry with his comment "you've done enough."

Yeah, that's the impression I got as well. Beth seemed a bit too self-centred to pick up on the fact that Harry and Ruth had a strong relationship, but Tariq and Dmitri seemed fairly clued-up. Ros was close to Harry, so yes, I'd assume Lucas would have picked up on things from her comments on the relationship.

[A Cousin]

I had always thought that Lucas cottoned onto the nature of the H/R relationship at the very end of 8.1 when Harry is thanking the team for saving them. Look at the way Lucas is peering at Harry when Harry sharply says, "She is home."

As for all the other characters, I agree that some "get it" more than others. I don't think it is required that they understand that Ruth and Harry love each other, just that they understand that the relationship is more profound and runs deeper than what would normally be expected.

Byatil - I envy you! Such wonderful things to discover! I encourage you to find a way to watch all of Spooks in order from the beginning. There is an on-going theme that, even though they are spys and trained to notice things, they can be utter crap at coming to terms with issues in their personal lives.

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(15-01-2011 04:08 PM)Byatil Wrote:  She knows how ruthless Harry can be (pun not intended!) and I think that scares her, as a woman who always considers the morality of any situation the team is placed in.

She's has seen Harry be ruthless many times. I think she is beginning to understand how ruthless she can be and that scares her more. It is when Harry is being conflicted and uncertain that she is thrown by him.

(15-01-2011 04:08 PM)Byatil Wrote:  As we are supposed to believe that Lucas is conflicted with his own feelings of love throughout S9, I think it makes sense that he would be looking for 'answers' in other people's relationships - he justifies his selfishness by telling Ruth to "be selfish for once".

This is an interesting observation to me. Ruth does not answer his question either. It remains to be seen how she is going to react to it all.

[Silktie]

(15-01-2011 05:07 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  She's has seen Harry be ruthless many times. I think she is beginning to understand how ruthless she can be and that scares her more. It is when Harry is being conflicted and uncertain that she is thrown by him.

(15-01-2011 04:08 PM)Byatil Wrote:  As we are supposed to believe that Lucas is conflicted with his own feelings of love throughout S9, I think it makes sense that he would be looking for 'answers' in other people's relationships - he justifies his selfishness by telling Ruth to "be selfish for once".

This is an interesting observation to me. Ruth does not answer his question either. It remains to be seen how she is going to react to it all.

Two very interesting observations here. I think it's very true that it's her own ruthlessness that scares her at this point. She definitely has no illusions about how ruthless Harry can be, especially after events in 8.1. And she blamed him for not being ruthless enough with Lucas in 9.7. The thing with season 9 Ruth for me is that her actions are very contradictory - when he lets Uzbek go in 9.3 she commends him for taking the "decent" option, yet she blames him for not immediately acting on her suspicions against Lucas, believing he is too soft with him. All this is perhaps an indication of her inability to come to terms with her own increasing willingness to act ruthlessly in the defence of the realm.

I sometimes wonder whether her actions are partly because she feels guilty about giving up the location of the uranium so easily to Mani in 8.1, especially since it then proved to be a futile gesture. She must realise by now that Mani would have killed them all in any case, even if he got what he wanted from Harry. Is part of this more ruthless approach in season 9 perhaps a subconscious attempt to compensate for that moment of weakness?

Re Ruth deciding to be selfish or not:
The question she must decide for herself is perhaps more whether it will really be a selfish action to allow herself to love Harry. Why is it necessarily seen as a selfish action? To be selfish entails choosing to do something that is to your own advantage, and will disadvantage others. Who, exactly, will be disadvantaged if she allows herself to love Harry?

[watchstrap]

Ruth must surely take some blame for the Harry/Lucas debacle. If she had voiced her suspicions to Harry when she first suspected Lucas then the onus would have been on Harry to sort it out (or not!). There are echos of Cotterdam here when Ruth just goes her own way because she thinks Harry won't take her seriously.

[Byatil]

(16-01-2011 12:52 PM)watchstrap Wrote:  Ruth must surely take some blame for the Harry/Lucas debacle. If she had voiced her suspicions to Harry when she first suspected Lucas then the onus would have been on Harry to sort it out (or not!). There are echos of Cotterdam here when Ruth just goes her own way because she thinks Harry won't take her seriously.

Well, I seem to remember that in 8.4 Ruth wants to check up on one of Malcolm's dead-drops (if that's what they're called; my memory is failing me today) and Harry basically tells her that unless it's relevant to the situation at hand, he doesn't want to hear anything about it. He seems very quick to dismiss things that she deems important, preferring to make his own judgements (as proved in 8.1; he completely dismisses her happiness for the sake of the situation at hand). As it turns out, Ruth was right to want to further analyse the business card she was given - was this supposed to prove something about their relationship? I can't remember if Harry actually reacts to the fact that Ruth was correct to be suspicious but it stands out as something fairly telling about their relationship.

[Forever Secret]

But then again Ruth has always taken in every detail, which Harry doesn't always have time for, while Ruth focuses on the small details Harry always looks at the bigger picture, and when sometimes Ruth finds information that doesn't seem important, Harry would dimiss it, but that only really affects the professional relationship,
Maybe because of their personal relationship, Harry chooses to try and dimiss her opinion whenever he can so it doesn't seem like Ruth is clouding his judgement, it could be one of those "You only listened to Ruth because of your personal history with her"...
Harry said it himself "Our personal history doesnt mean you can question everything I ask you to do"
Maybe it's a way of Harry trying to get over their past... and a lot of the time it comes back to bit him

[Byatil]

(16-01-2011 02:25 PM)Forever Secret Wrote:  But then again Ruth has always taken in every detail, which Harry doesn't always have time for, while Ruth focuses on the small details Harry always looks at the bigger picture, and when sometimes Ruth finds information that doesn't seem important, Harry would dimiss it, but that only really affects the professional relationship,
Maybe because of their personal relationship, Harry chooses to try and dimiss her opinion whenever he can so it doesn't seem like Ruth is clouding his judgement, it could be one of those "You only listened to Ruth because of your personal history with her"...
Harry said it himself "Our personal history doesnt mean you can question everything I ask you to do"
Maybe it's a way of Harry trying to get over their past... and a lot of the time it comes back to bit him

That's an interesting point! Harry approaches things very logically, whereas Ruth tends to let emotions cloud her judgement slightly. That seems to be why they work so well together as a team, however it may not be a good combination of traits for a successful relationship.

It's very frustrating really, because as much as I'd love them to just say "sod it" and be happy together... I don't think it could ever work