Series 9 Episode 7 discussion

[molecatcher]

(03-11-2010 04:08 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  I think it's to early to say anything about the entire plotline. This time last year there were loads of holes in the nightingale story (some of which were never wrapped up i admit) but we still have the concluding episode to answer questions on Lucas/John.
To say that it's totally 'unjustifiable' or 'any old tosh' or 'the writers thinking us stupid' is not realy a justifyable claim until after we see their conclusion. You never know you may regret all this bashing.

The writers know what they're doing, they'll be having a pretty good go at tying it up in the next ep and possibly 10.1.

Also i think it's worth pointing out that they've done this before to characters. Look at Connie James for example. We all believed she was good until she killed Ben. You just can't believe what they say about anyone in this show... ever. (Yes that includes Harry, Ruth, Dimitri, Beth, Malcolm and Tariq).

Exactly, which is why I and every one I know who watches Spooks, loves it. We really don't ever feel confident in any character surviving for long or remaining loyal and it keeps us gripped. During this episode I sat back and admired RA's ability to have me loving and then hating him within a few minutes. He was awesome! If he wanted to leave the show but didn't, as I understand it, want an average exit, i.e being blown up or sneaking off acrosss the back of the cemetery after his own funeral, they couldn't have come up with a better twist to enable him to show off his immense acting skills.

[BravoNine]

I won't entirely give up on the whole storyline until I see the very end, so I still have some faith that maybe these writers can give me some explanations.

Unpredictability is what I love about Spooks too, the sense that no one is ever safe, it does keep me glued to the TV wanting to know the next story, and I will be the first to admit that even in the mess of this storyline I do enjoy the shock and RA's amazing portrayal of two very different personalities.

But like I said before, there is a difference between shock storyline written with consistency as character development and shock storyline written simply to shock and awe the audience, and it is the latter that I don't appreciate very much and really hope that Spooks won't go into.

This isn't the first convoluted evil betrayal storyline I have watched, in fact, just less than two years ago, 24 had the same kind of storyline with the resurrection of Tony Almeida, a character who was essentially a very good guy but at the end of that storyline turned into a revenge seeking terrorist willing to hurt innocent people. It was just as hard for me to see sweet loving Tony turn into this hollow empty bastard as seeing loyal Lucas turn into cold-blooded John, but I took Tony's change. I took and accepted that storyline, however convoluted, because the seeds were all planted there, the reasons were all there, we knew his intentions, we could see him walking down this path of darkness, we could see the hints even before the character came back from the dead, the pieces were already set in place for such a storyline to take place, and as hard as it was for me to accept it, I understood Tony's change. I was worried, but 24 writers came through, and as much as I hated seeing this dark side of Tony, I accepted it because it made sense.

I can only hope that Spooks writers will find a fitting conclusion for Lucas's storyline, and I hope I can accept that too. I love Spooks, I love its pace and its unpredictability, and I would hate for this show to loose any credibility in my eyes.

Acting-wise, RA and his fellow cast is hitting this story out of the park, however crazy, convoluted, and completely insane this storyline may be, the actors are acting the hell out of whatever they can and it's what has me so drawn into the storyline that for that one hour, I forget that this storyline has holes and I LOVE what's happening. Thank god for this amazing cast, what a saving grace!!

And I guess even if this storyline never turns out the way I want it to, I may still stay on to just watch these wonderful actors act.

[A Cousin]

I don't think they are being dismissive of RA at all. Any actor worth their paycheck, and I think RA is very much worth his paycheck, would jump at the chance for a challenge like this. I will freely admit that it has come very close to entering the land of melodrama for me at times. I hasten to add, it has never actually gone there. Because of RA. I suppose we will all have to agree to disagree about whether or not Lucas' back story holds water or not and to what extent. I choose to have all the info before I decide.

What I find funny (funny - ironic, not funny - haha) is that we the viewers seem to feel every bit as confused and betrayed and distrustful and manipulated as any one of the characters on the show. There is no doubt that this series has challenged the loyalty of its viewers at some point. Whether you agree or not, we are all feeling something. That - to me - is good theater. There is not much TV on these days that can grab you by the jugular, drag you kicking and screaming into a deserted warehouse and a situation you do not want to face and force you to decide where your loyalties lie. Sound familiar?

[femaleBertieWooster]

(03-11-2010 09:44 AM)berlin101 Wrote:  I'm completely with you, BravoNine - Maya is so devoid of any character traits and backstory, it's suspicious.

And the brainwash/sleeper theory is the only one that makes any sense to me at this point.
The scenes where Lucas/John is clutching his head as if it is going to explode? Not only because his conflicted conscience, but maybe two personalities/pasts/... one of them trying to get the upper hand?
Harry has known Vaughn for a long time - why? Were they both orderer to guard a valuable asset -aka John/Lucas/Albany? Why doesn't Harry seem surprised with what is happening? Why does he let John/Lucas roam free if the only sensible thing to do would be to arrest him? No - instead he puts chains on Ruth for planting the bug in Lucas/Johns computer... Harry must be behind this or at least know all about this.

Your points about Lucas, Maya and Harry,

Lucas, it's not a conflicted conscience, he is not just angry at being outed or blackmailed, he is confused. This tells me he is being manipulated and has been from the start.

Maya, I agree about the lack of anything except beauty. An important point is that she is a doctor. She may specialize in something sinister. And we still don't know how she met him as John. Someone that important to him would have had a mention while he was in Dakar. He looked to be quite the loner. When the real Lucas gave his speech about loving something more than yourself, John came up blank, i.e. no great love, no Maya. If she met him after he took his new identity, she would know him as Lucas.

Harry, he doesn't have to be all bad or even a traitor. He is possibly trying to troubleshoot a mission gone wrong, an experiment gone wrong.

[Kirayuki]

(03-11-2010 05:09 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  What I find funny (funny - ironic, not funny - haha) is that we the viewers seem to feel every bit as confused and betrayed and distrustful and manipulated as any one of the characters on the show. There is no doubt that this series has challenged the loyalty of its viewers at some point. Whether you agree or not, we are all feeling something. That - to me - is good theater. There is not much TV on these days that can grab you by the jugular, drag you kicking and screaming into a deserted warehouse and a situation you do not want to face and force you to decide where your loyalties lie. Sound familiar?

Oh yes. All too familiar.

I had this conversation at home earlier. It was pointed out to me then that the writers have managed to make the viewers feel like a grid member who's been betrayed, or if not that then at least involved with what's going on as we do care and are all, like you said, 'feeling something'.

[BravoNine]

(03-11-2010 05:09 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  I don't think they are being dismissive of RA at all. Any actor worth their paycheck, and I think RA is very much worth his paycheck, would jump at the chance for a challenge like this. I will freely admit that it has come very close to entering the land of melodrama for me at times. I hasten to add, it has never actually gone there. Because of RA. I suppose we will all have to agree to disagree about whether or not Lucas' back story holds water or not and to what extent. I choose to have all the info before I decide.

RA did always like playing the baddies after all....

This storyline has been strange and weird for me from the start, but because of RA's wonderful portrayal, when I'm watching it, it doesn't feel fake, instead it feels very real and very true. Spooks is lucky that RA has the caliber to take this storyline to places and make people FEEL something. If he wasn't so good, this storyline would have fallen without him carrying it forward.

(03-11-2010 05:09 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  What I find funny (funny - ironic, not funny - haha) is that we the viewers seem to feel every bit as confused and betrayed and distrustful and manipulated as any one of the characters on the show. There is no doubt that this series has challenged the loyalty of its viewers at some point. Whether you agree or not, we are all feeling something. That - to me - is good theater. There is not much TV on these days that can grab you by the jugular, drag you kicking and screaming into a deserted warehouse and a situation you do not want to face and force you to decide where your loyalties lie. Sound familiar?

I am offended that you would believe that I would be dragged anywhere kicking and screaming in such an indignified manner....

Okay, maybe I was clinging to Lucas's leg at one point....but that for strategic purposes....

[Simone]

Personally, I think that the plot with the estate-snooper who was deemed psychologically unfit for MI-5 work was more than just a side plot. I think the whole mental / psychological state of Lucas/John's mind is essential here. So, let's say John is a student with a fluid morality getting involved with drugs in Africa. Before he was just the genius student (must have had that photographic memory already) in love with Maya - didn't he tell her something happened when he was in Africa? Their story must be from before. So he picks himself up, meets Vaughn & Lucas. Apparently, he must have thought a lot about Maya because he apparently told Vaughn about her at the hotel when he got drunk. Then things with the errands take off - not sure exactly about this part. But at the moment I like to think that he was as he told Harry told by Vaughn they were actually doing work for the government. He really got excited and went with it - so he started coming up with ideas too - hence him opening the suitcase. Still plausible to me, since genius people tend to focus too much on one aspect in life and shut out the rest. Also, he was rather isolated, with just Vaughn and Lucas as company. Less people to observe his change or where he was going to.

Let's say he geniunely was shocked after the explosion when he realized to what the "fun" had led. But remember, he's a guy with fluid morality. So the way to go about solving a problem - not good, killing Lucas. I think he somehow mentally had this image of himself as a good guy, one that achieves great things. However, he lacked moral strength to actually be that guy. But how easy to fall prey to self deception. He just to a greater degree. From then on leading a double life started to properly mess with his head. So he lives as Lucas, tells himself lines of how to be good and not to be a traitor over and over until he actually believes it. Might have really felt remorse and guilt - hence the sentence about Russian prison would make sense. Everything is ok so long as nothing is out of the ordinary. Once a problem arises - say that guy from Russia (can't remember his name right now) or then Sarah - he always falls back into old habits. What I mean is, the way he decides to solve problems is on his own. Doing stuff that is in the grey area. Not like other people who'd have asked the team & listened to the rules.

So far so good. All of this double life is going pretty well, Lucas/John has recovered from Russian prison only to have the Sarah fiasco. Then he gets pictures from the past. Now this must mess with his head properly. Hence the sudden falling apart of his composure. He's confused. His actions become a mixture of Lucas and John behaviour. The only thing that seems normal is Maya who he knew before he got involved with any of this. So he must be convinced (apart from maybe loving her so much, not that convinced of that myself) that she's the one he needs to stay normal.

I don't know how much I've been rambling on now. But to me this episode was like a revelation. The whole Lucas/Vaughn/Maya storyline never appealed to me before. It was distracting and weird. Now everything starts to come together. And I like it. Can't wait for the final pieces of the puzzle

[A Cousin]

(03-11-2010 05:17 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  Okay, maybe I was clinging to Lucas's leg at one point....but that for strategic purposes....

That wasn't his leg.

[BoHenley]

Sorry if I was misunderstood. "Feeling slightly cheated" didn't mean that I'm not enjoying the storyline - I'm loving it! Such fabulous performances particularly from RA, PF and NW and (this week) the fellow who played Deery. My comment refers to the writing "point-of-view," the readers (viewers) should've had one tiny clue about the Lucas character, even with such a show as Spooks.

I actually have no problem accepting that John/Lucas is a killer and/or sleeper. But I'm hoping, like everyone else, that we'll get an explanation, a great twist, and/or some another fantastic revelation in 9.8. Less than 5 days to go...

[FATBOY]

Re. post from Simone,

Liked this post and it deserves a longer reply. I like the idea of Lucas/John solving problems on his own or in the grey area and not going to the team.

You seem to suggest it was John's idea to kill Lucas, but I'm not sure this is so. In both versions of Lucas's death depicted in this episode Vaughn is present. The John/Lucas version where Vaughn shoots Lucas and the Vaughn version which he suggests to John/Lucas where John strangles Lucas, Vaughn is present.

What's interesting about the depictions I suppose is that they are not objective fact but subjectivly remembered events. So from who's subjective point of view are they? I pressume John/Lucas's. So it would seem that Vaughn has a large influence on John/Lucas's psyche, even if Vaughn was not physically present and as you suggest it was John's idea to kill Lucas.

All a bit confusing with Lucas, John and John/Lucas I know :-)