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KiKi · (This post was last modified: 04-11-2010 01:40 PM by KiKi.)

Sorry if this has been stated already (I haven't been able to read everyone's theories...!), but there has been lots of talk about the way Vaughn is an expert manipulator (even said by Lucas) - down to the point where he pretended to have a stroke to appeal to Lucas' conscience.

We *know* the Russians and the Chinese are now working together (thank you, 9.6).

We had lots of references to awakenings.

What if Lucas was hypnotised in that jail? And what if Vaughn has now been using words to awaken into his head manipulated memories, one by one? Memories that never happened? All so Lucas believes he's a traitor, and can be handed over to the Chinese by Vaughn, because he *is* Albany?

Seriously, I'm too excited for next week. Vueltasss

KiKi

Logsie · 04-11-2010, 01:47 PM

I watched it again, selectively, last night and I'm as confused as ever!

When Lucas was on the phone to Vaughan after returning Harry to the grid, the people in the black car were listening in. When they ended the call, the man in the car called someone in French and told him that they have a problem. However the man in the back seat of the car was Chinese because we could see his reflection in the laptop screen. Therefore the Chinese were presumably in league with the same French assassins that Deery stumbled upon. Why would the Chinese want to kill a money launderer for an organised crime syndicate and how is that connected to Lucas and Albany. Wheels within wheels and I'm getting motion sickness.

agent68 · 04-11-2010, 01:51 PM

If Lucas is Albany why didn't Vaughn just kidnap Lucas at gunpoint and hand him over to the Chinese? Just a thought - I really have no idea whatsoever.

Somewhere in my imagination I did at one point wounder idly if the Chinese had done something to alter Lucas' mind when Lucas & Dimitri broke into the embassy in 9.1. Some sort of implant/injection? Something quick just before the police turned up.

**A Cousin** · 04-11-2010, 01:51 PM

(04-11-2010 09:24 AM)BoHenley Wrote: Some more thoughts, adding to those from previous posts.

Which flashback is real?
Who's still lying?
Is John/Lucas brainwashed (he sure acts like it)? As Binkie pointed out, Vaughan keeps filling in his background FOR HIM.

I went back and watched the Harry/Lucas interrogation scene again (and again and again) to see if I could see through the convoluted stories/lies. Of course, I couldn't. It seems to me that if one were purposefully lying, you would tell as much truth as possible and only pepper your story with lies? It also seemed to me that Lucas/John really believed what he was saying. The emotions are real. There are couple holes and evasions that Harry presses him on that Lucas/John doesn't fully understand. Is that because he is making it up as he goes along or because someone missed filling a hole? I thought it interesting that Harry suggests to Lucas/John that he killed Lucas for the passport. Lucas/John just accepts it. Why? Because he is lying his head off and it is easier or because he really believes it? His emotion, esp. over his remorse for doing what he did, seems real to me. In both flashbacks, the look of horror on his face as he emerges from behind the car after the bombing is the same. The only time I really didn't believe him was when he was trying to convince Harry to let him be the one to track down Vaughan. I have been totally manipulated because in my first viewing I totally bought this hook, line and sinker - to the point of tears.

KiKi · 04-11-2010, 02:01 PM

(04-11-2010 01:51 PM)agent68 Wrote: If Lucas is Albany why didn't Vaughn just kidnap Lucas at gunpoint and hand him over to the Chinese? Just a thought - I really have no idea whatsoever.

Maybe all Vaughn knows is that he has to get Albany and that Lucas can help him - but he doesn't know that Lucas is that person! Maybe even the Chinese guys don't know that Albany is a person? (If it is...!)

I like the point by the other poster that Vaughn is filling in all of Lucas' past for him.

HellsBells · 04-11-2010, 02:31 PM

I loved the Harry/Lucas interrogation scene, as much as I hated hearing what Lucas was saying, such brilliant acting from both PF and RA. That's why I hope they both make it to series 10, these people can really act.
I liked it when Lucas spoke about his time in a Russian prison, he has never really spoken a great deal about his time there, apart from the initial debrief with Ros and Harry, and when talking down Oleg Darshavin.

Logsie · 04-11-2010, 03:10 PM

(04-11-2010 02:31 PM)HellsBells Wrote: I loved the Harry/Lucas interrogation scene, as much as I hated hearing what Lucas was saying, such brilliant acting from both PF and RA. That's why I hope they both make it to series 10, these people can really act.
I liked it when Lucas spoke about his time in a Russian prison, he has never really spoken a great deal about his time there, apart from the initial debrief with Ros and Harry, and when talking down Oleg Darshavin.

I agree HellsBells.

The acting in this episode was superb. PF really made you feel Harry's frustration and utter desolation at being betrayed by yet another of his officers - and one who had a special place in his affections, too! He must be really doubting his ability to manage section D after this bombshell. RA was hypnotic; his portrayal of a man coming apart, torn by loyalties to completely separate lives, is nothing short of a masterpiece. He could have gone all melodramatic, wailing and crying, but no, it is all in the facial expressions, sometimes oh so subtle. NW was also fantastic this week (isn't she always?) so I agree with an earlier poster who said it would be wrong to single anyone out for an acting BAFTA - as much as I long for Richard to get one!

conniesachs · 04-11-2010, 03:55 PM

Missed it on Monday and wanted to watch it twice before asking a few questions;

* Think some people have queried what mobile model was used to detonate bomb but no one seems to have questioned whether Senegal had a mobile network in 95. I was living in Botswana at the time and there definitely wasn't one there, and I think South Africa was only just getting their infrastructure in place - could do with some imput from Silktie on this - as I knew a guy who got a job in SA locating and acquiring sites for mobile phone masts, and I'm sure that was in 96. Can't believe SA would be behind Senegal in this sort of technology.
If Senegal didn't have a mobile network in 95 would that prove that Vaughn's version of the bombing was a fake - clutching at straws - or just that the script writers didn't do their research, again?

*According to John/Lucas the young Lucas North went to Dakar because it was crawling with spies and he wanted to get the smell of it.
When Harry wanted to go after Arkady Katchimov (7.2) he said he wanted the smell of him. Thought at the time it was an unusual expression and now it's come up again, and Lucas (the one we know and love) wasn't at that meeting. Also, Harry pressed John/Lucas several times on why the young LN was in Senegal and interested in the intelligence community.
Did Harry tell a young man eager to join MI5 to get some experience first and now realises what really became of him?

* Unless Vaughn and John managed to dispose of the body permanently they left behind a murdered white man. Who identified him? Was he shot or strangled? I know african police forces don't have a good record for efficiency, but the Senegal police must have some records. Did Beth check?

* Harry said the Dakar bombing happened on his watch, but surely events in africa would be in MI6's remit wouldn't they? Or is it because embassies are considered to be part of their country's sovereign territory and are therefore the British Embassy would be considered part of Britain? Does anyone know the protocol?

Logsie · 04-11-2010, 04:42 PM

(04-11-2010 03:55 PM)conniesachs Wrote: Missed it on Monday and wanted to watch it twice before asking a few questions;

* Think some people have queried what mobile model was used to detonate bomb but no one seems to have questioned whether Senegal had a mobile network in 95. I was living in Botswana at the time and there definitely wasn't one there, and I think South Africa was only just getting their infrastructure in place - could do with some imput from Silktie on this - as I knew a guy who got a job in SA locating and acquiring sites for mobile phone masts, and I'm sure that was in 96. Can't believe SA would be behind Senegal in this sort of technology.
If Senegal didn't have a mobile network in 95 would that prove that Vaughn's version of the bombing was a fake - clutching at straws - or just that the script writers didn't do their research, again?

*According to John/Lucas the young Lucas North went to Dakar because it was crawling with spies and he wanted to get the smell of it.
When Harry wanted to go after Arkady Katchimov (7.2) he said he wanted the smell of him. Thought at the time it was an unusual expression and now it's come up again, and Lucas (the one we know and love) wasn't at that meeting. Also, Harry pressed John/Lucas several times on why the young LN was in Senegal and interested in the intelligence community.
Did Harry tell a young man eager to join MI5 to get some experience first and now realises what really became of him?

* Unless Vaughn and John managed to dispose of the body permanently they left behind a murdered white man. Who identified him? Was he shot or strangled? I know african police forces don't have a good record for efficiency, but the Senegal police must have some records. Did Beth check?

* Harry said the Dakar bombing happened on his watch, but surely events in africa would be in MI6's remit wouldn't they? Or is it because embassies are considered to be part of their country's sovereign territory and are therefore the British Embassy would be considered part of Britain? Does anyone know the protocol?

Good point about the embassy. I suspect that it comes under MI5's remit because British citizens were killed on British sovereign territory - or was it because they already knew the bombers were British?

Re the mobile network (absence of) I would dearly love to think this adds weight to our theories that John's memories are fabricated or at least peppered with half-truths but I suspect it's just down to sloppy research. Kudos should ask the fans to do their research for them, I'm sure we'd be happy to oblige free of charge. Silba

The whole thing is dodgy IMO. If Lucas was applying to join MI5 then surely they would be keeping tabs on him so they would have known he'd been in Senegal in '95, yet when John (who Harry still believed to be Lucas at this point) volunteered the information that he had been in Dakar when the bombing happened, Harry was genuinely surprised to learn of it. And whilst we're on the subject, if Beth found the real Lucas's gym membership in 5 minutes, complete with a very helpful photo ID, how in hell's name didn't anyone find it before now? I think the "real" Lucas identity has been planted there for someone to find. Either that or the writers think we are all a bunch of gullible idiots. Dodgy

Onion Terror · 04-11-2010, 05:27 PM

I've watched this episode through a couple of times now and still can't help worrying about whether ep.8 will resolve anything or simply provide us with a dramatic but somehow nonsensical ending. My principal issue is how quickly Lucas/John seems to have gone through such a big personality change. Throughout series 7 & 8 he has loyally served his country and tryeed to regain Harrys trust and confidence. Even for much of S9 he has been portrayed as a loyal officer and basically honorable person whose integrity has been compromised by someone blackmailing him over his past. Rather than being unscrupulously self-interested he seems to have been genuinely torn between wanting Vaughn off his back and knowing that he'll have to betray the service in order to do so. And yet in spite of all this, all it takes is Vaughns "you're a killer.. who fell asleep and dreamt he was a hero" speech to (apparently) strip away his conscience and turn him 'bad' (for want of a better word!).
It kind of reminds me of the way in which soap operas inroduce a new character who is related to an existing one, and then have to invent some spurious and unrealistic story to explain why the existing character hasn't EVER spoken about this brother/son/cousin/whatever. The fact that the story doesn't ring true doesn't matter to the writers as long as it makes good TV, and I fear that the Lucas/John storyline might be concluded in a similar way. Hopefully not, but...