Series 9 Episode 8 discussion

[Onion Terror]

(10-11-2010 12:44 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  ...and then PF fans get to miss out on the swapping clothes scene. Nice of Lucas get Harry something appropriate that fitted, no jeans and T-shirt for Harry!

Is it just me, or had Lucas somehow managed to get hold of the same suit Harry wore in that S4 episode where he goes to the dog track with Adam and Wes?!?!

[HellsBells]

I wish the episode had ended on the roof top with Lucas threatening to kill Harry, maybe even a gun shot. That would have been a cliffhanger!! Maybe RA wanted to be written out now so that he wouldn't have to pretend to be in Spooks while he's filming The Hobbit. Therefore the phone call with HS and Harry had to be added on as a taster for series 10.

Did we ever find out why the Chinese were talking to the French in 9.7?

[NightOwl]

(10-11-2010 08:57 AM)Caitlinhg Wrote:  The essence, of the following excerpt from an interview Marlon Brando did with Dick Cavett in 1973, works as a possible point the writers were trying to make via the Lucas/John story line:

"We [human beings] couldn't survive a second if we weren't able to act," Brando said. "Acting is a survival mechanism. It's a social unguent and it's a lubricant. We act to save our lives, actually, every day. People lie constantly every day by not saying something that they think, or [by] saying something that they didn't think."

"That's not acting," Cavett countered.

"That is acting," Brando insisted.

In other words, we are ALL actors and liars, everyday, if we truthfully reflect upon our own behavior; Lucas/John's story amplified those characteristics an hundred fold, but everyone on the grid and off, tell untruths to themselves and others, regularly. What makes Lucas/John so unforgivable, or the story line (from this point of view), so far fetched? The show is a lie, too, if you get down to it. The only "truths" about the show is that it is offered for entertainment, employs some wonderfully talented and creative people and draws a devoted audience. The characters we get attached to are really, unreal or untrue, lies, so to speak, yet... we fiercely defend them as if they weren't fabrications, but REAL, family even, so... we've deluded ourselves to care for imagined people that are actually just electrons being projected to us via our screens... yet... we FEEL passionately about them!

I say "Kudos to the KUDOS writers. Well done!"

See ya all [or most of ya all] next January when S10 commences. Seeing how Harry's baby "Section D" all came about throughout the years, would be fascinating to me... wonder who would get to play the young, Harry?

Every genre has it's conventions, and there are reasons why. One of conventions Spooks should be abiding by is that you don't turn your hero into the villain. But even if I give the Spooks writers a pass on this rule (and ignore series 7 and 8) and try to look at the story objectively, it doesn't work for me. The story is too poorly crafted.

It depends on too many coincidences: that two young Englishmen who look enough alike that one can use the other's passport meet each other in Dakar, that one has already applied to MI-5 but hasn't actually met anyone from MI-5, that neither seems to have any friends or relatives to report either missing.

Worst of all, no motivation is given or even suggested for why John blew up the embassy, developed a conscious, and continued to use Lucas's identity upon his return to England. From Alex's line to Harry about Lucas's story being a lie, I think we're meant to assume that Vaughn's flashback was the truer one. While I appreciate the idea and irony of a terrorist becoming someone who seeks to stop terrorism, I don't believe the change would happen within days or weeks, but rather be a gradual process of disillusionment over months or years.

Moreover, if seeing the destruction and death caused by the bomb was too much for John, how did he than bring himself to strangle Real Lucas? If the deaths weren't the reason, what was? Why didn't he try to do the good that Real Lucas would have done as John? There are plenty of ways he could have done good without becoming a spy for MI-5.

Nothing about this story makes sense to me. Nothing about this story even suggests that the writers tried to make it make sense. I feel like they started with the denouement of a showdown of Lucas and Harry and didn't care how they got there.

So I say to the the Kudos writers: Shame on you for this mess. Going forward you would do well to remember some basic rules that apply to all genres -
Character should drive plot, not the reverse.
Continuity and detail matter.
Respect the intelligence of your audience.

On a different note, why do so many people think that series 10 will involve a lengthy investigation into Harry's past? Since series 6 every cliffhanger has been resolved by the end of the first episode and every series arc barely mentioned in the next series. The writers could break with tradition, but my guess is that it already will have happened offscreen when the series begins, Harry will have been forced out, but will be recalled because of some crisis. I'd advise against getting your hopes up of getting any revelations or seeing old characters.

[tastiger]

(10-11-2010 01:25 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  I wish the writers had made it clearer, but all that logic seems to have gotten convoluted under Lucas/John's love of Maya. I wished they just dropped Maya all together and focused on his two lives and the home desired with MI5.

But I can believe that Lucas North lived in John Bateman, and that at the end of the road, Lucas made the sacrifice to end this mess and protect his people. If I can hold onto that belief, then this ending isn't so stupid and sad. Then I can believe in Series 7 and 8 again, then I can believe that when it counted Lucas still came through and chose to end himself rather than the people he cares about.

You brought up a very good point. I also never connected with Maya/Lucas and it indeed would have been more powerful an angle to the story if the emphasis on the Lucas/John struggle was purely done because of his devotion to Harry & the MI-5 team. The writers could have shown Lucas trying to handle this Albany switch as a way to once again prove his real loyalty to MI5 and in the end die because of it....but no....they have to throw in Maya and make his whole existence reliant on his love for her. That's what grates on my nerves. Up until the last two episodes it was not clear yet that Lucas/John would be the hateful villain. I didn't give up on him until that flash back with Vaughn. OMG my heart stopped and I literally felt sick inside. With that one scene the writers obliterated every episode Lucas has been in for me.

I won't be rewatching any of them, unlike all the seasons preceding. I loved Tom, Zoe, Adam, and especially Roz. They had their flaws but you knew their core was loyalty to the team and an honesty with each other when they couldn't be honest with anyone else outside their circle. That's why I feel cheated about the way Spooks ended RA's character. Sure he didn't kill Harry at the end, nor set up that real bomb...but they did make him the first leader agent that put his own survival before the team. (I don't count Roz's dealings with the French because she was trying to do the right thing)

All I'm saying is I could have handled Lucas' final push out of MI5 if the writers had stayed focused on his loyalty to the team, his obsession to hide his past....and NOT be the one who killed the real Lucas. They could have had Vaughn be the real killer/bomber who later convinces a clueless John to take Lucas' identity. Then when Vaughn shows up again, he tells him the truth about the real Lucas' death to force him to get the Albany file. But through it all we witness Lucas' struggle to do the best thing for MI-5 and his cohorts.....even if it looks to them that he may be a traitor. He dies saving the Albany file...and the irony being...it was a Fake! Can you just feel the agony and guilt?

Now That I would have LOVED!

[HellsBells]

I guess the reason John continued to use Lucas's identity upon return to the UK was because he believed that the people who told them to bomb the Embassy would track him down and kill John, and I guess Maya so he stayed away from her.
I totally agree with you, far too many coincidences and inconsistencies for this story to work. I wished the writers had left in some ambiguity regarding whether Vaughn or John was telling the truth about the bombing. But no, on the roof Lucas admits to Harry he did it to feel like somebody, to do something.

[Kirayuki]

(10-11-2010 04:30 PM)Onion Terror Wrote:  

(10-11-2010 12:44 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  ...and then PF fans get to miss out on the swapping clothes scene. Nice of Lucas get Harry something appropriate that fitted, no jeans and T-shirt for Harry!

Is it just me, or had Lucas somehow managed to get hold of the same suit Harry wore in that S4 episode where he goes to the dog track with Adam and Wes?!?!

Nope. I thought that too. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd got into Harry's house and stole them.

[Tea Lady]

I agree that I didnt see the point of adding on the Harry/HS scene at the end. It clearly was an add on. I think it would have been obvious to all that Harry will find himself in the soup because of what he did. We really didn't need that scene to tell us that. If they had ended with Harry looking over the edge of the building, it would have been obvious that Lucas was dead. It wouldn't have been a cliff hanger but still shocking.

I can't really see Harry's investigation lasting more than two episodes to be honest if PF is doing the full series. It would put some viewers off. It would be interesting to see a new Section Head though, just for a while mind.

[Kirayuki]

I think it would be interesting to see a new person but in charge and Harry put in a lesser postion to them for a small amount of time. Might make him see what it's like on the other side of things again.

I think three episodes would be the most they could push it for (however i'm hoping they don't push it this far). However two could be quite good if done in a 5.1/5.2 way.
I'd like to see him leave the grid for a bit too like in 4.9 when he was suspended.

I have a funny feeling that the rushed add on postscript was because they weren't expecting to get series 10 but got it anyway.

I'm really dissapointed in it and to be perfectly honest, despite watching the episode several times already i have decided to stop the episode where i thought it should end. With Harry walking off the roof and the sky going dark. I shall return to the postscript when i want to analyse it further if it's worth doing.

[lwhite53]

(10-11-2010 05:41 PM)tastiger Wrote:  

(10-11-2010 01:25 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  I wish the writers had made it clearer, but all that logic seems to have gotten convoluted under Lucas/John's love of Maya. I wished they just dropped Maya all together and focused on his two lives and the home desired with MI5.

You brought up a very good point. I also never connected with Maya/Lucas and it indeed would have been more powerful an angle to the story if the emphasis on the Lucas/John struggle was purely done because of his devotion to Harry & the MI-5 team. The writers could have shown Lucas trying to handle this Albany switch as a way to once again prove his real loyalty to MI5 and in the end die because of it....but no....they have to throw in Maya and make his whole existence reliant on his love for her. That's what grates on my nerves.

I've been thinking a lot about this, the "Lucas did it all for the love of Maya" scenario," and have come to a realization that that's exactly where the writers went wrong and why the story doesn't hold together, at a fundamental level.

From a psychological perspective, Maya could never have been the "trigger" for Lucas' unraveling. In fact, no woman would have been. All Lucas' relationships with women were fleeting and ephemeral -- intense while happening and then forgotten quickly when the next woman came along. It's his relationships with men that are the psychological keystones of his life. Vaughn, Kachimov, Darshavin and Harry -- all had far-reaching and life-altering effects on Lucas. Given that kind of personal history, only a man could have been the catalyst for Lucas' devolution.

Had the Lucas story arc been written this way, it might have worked. The Maya character muddled the plot and never really rang true, because she wasn't.

Where's Howard Brenton when you need him? Of all the spooks writers, he'd probably have gotten it right.

[BravoNine]

(10-11-2010 05:43 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  But no, on the roof Lucas admits to Harry he did it to feel like somebody, to do something.

I gotta hand it to John/Lucas, when I want to feel like somebody, to do something, I normally just smack people or go watch TV.......I don't know where he got the whole "YAY let's go plant bombs in Embassy" thing into his head....

Maybe it would have made more sense if the writers put in that John/Lucas has mental issues or multiple personality disorder or some kind of mental condition, then maybe his already messed up state of mind is stemmed from his bad childhood past or some neurological thing. At least then there is some kind of reason.

Not everyone who gets stuck in Africa decides to blow up the Embassy.... This is rather taking boredom to an extreme level....

I'm sure for many of us normal people, when we think of making something of ourselves, blowing up an Embassy is not exactly at the top of that list.....they really should have just said that John suffered some mental condition or something, or like he's not right in the head, that's why he does all these extreme things....because ummmmmm really....normal people don't think like this...even if they're stranded on a different continent.....

I mean, I was kidnapped by a train once, and that didn't cause me to want to go blow someone up......

(10-11-2010 05:56 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  

(10-11-2010 04:30 PM)Onion Terror Wrote:  

(10-11-2010 12:44 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  ...and then PF fans get to miss out on the swapping clothes scene. Nice of Lucas get Harry something appropriate that fitted, no jeans and T-shirt for Harry!

Is it just me, or had Lucas somehow managed to get hold of the same suit Harry wore in that S4 episode where he goes to the dog track with Adam and Wes?!?!

Nope. I thought that too. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd got into Harry's house and stole them.

More mystery of the weird relationship of Lucas and Harry.....

They seem to know random things about each other.....like favorite operas and clothing size......hmmmm