Series 9 Episode 8 discussion

[Gold Cormorant]

I'm still in shock about this episode, but I've been trying to wrap my mind around it. I loved the Ruth/Lucas scene and the looks between Harry and Ruth - my heart just melted. And Harry's message to Catherine? Yeah, definitely crying at that point. I do think that this series wasn't as good as others (lots of holes in writing, weird storylines, etc.), but I think part of the problem is that I'm still comparing everything to series 4/5. Personally, I thought (and probably always will think) 4/5 were the best they've done, and it's hard for anything else to live up to the standard. The team worked flawlessly together, there was positive romantic tension with H/R, and the stories worked.

While this series has been okay, I really felt like this episode was the best. Yes, the Lucas storyline was sudden and bizarre and yes, he seemed to magically change into an angsty lover-boy, but he also redeemed himself. Yes, he was a psycho and threatened Ruth's life (which made me almost hate him), but he was working through lots of his own issues. I'm not saying it was well-written or explained, but it was well-acted. The characters, in this series especially, have been through a lot (again, not necessarily well-written or explained) and it's changed them. They're all unstable, they're emotionally compromised on a daily basis. This episode really captured their emotional turmoil and reminded us that these characters are human. No matter how much we didn't want Lucas to betray his country, or destroy everything for Maya, or jump, he did. Probably because he's human, and with that existence comes a lot of emotion.

I do wish they had fleshed out Maya and Lucas, explained Lucas' sudden burning passion for her, but they didn't. It's up to us, the fans, to imagine that he must have really loved her if he was willing to sacrifice everything for her. As many responses are saying, we don't know the background. Maybe the script was different before "The Hobbit." Maybe it was different until someone just decided they didn't like it. What we know is what they've given us, and we have to make do.

On a more positive note, I can't wait until S10. I'm hoping the first few episodes are the investigation - maybe a new Section Head that can clash with Ruth? - then Harry returns and, in the finale, retires with Ruth. And they lived happily ever after.

[Kirayuki]

(10-11-2010 07:13 PM)Gold Cormorant Wrote:  On a more positive note, I can't wait until S10. I'm hoping the first few episodes are the investigation - maybe a new Section Head that can clash with Ruth? - then Harry returns and, in the finale, retires with Ruth. And they lived happily ever after.

Yes please. That would be perfect.

Maya, was definately the weakest link in the show... however i do think she redeemed herself just a little by making Lucas tell Harry where Ruth was.

I also loved her death scene because the use of the flashbacks, voice over and Lucas' cries of despair working so well together.
That my good friends is epic film making at it's best.

[BoHenley]

Four more comments

a) Lucas should've given Harry the boiler suit... (What a great parallel to 8.4!)
b) The Lucas shirt-off scene was basically unnecessary, but I AM NOT COMPLAINING! (One last look!) [notice she was indifferent...did that woman actually have a PULSE??)
c) In the end, I think Lucas stepped off the roof to save the team. He'd lost everything, including himself and any sort of future, and rather than kill Harry, it was the only way out for him.
d) I agree with one of the (media) reviewers, that the Lucas/John storyline was a courageous idea. But I still feel sad that, in spite of Lucas's story, we lost a damn good SPOOK.

[Tea Lady]

I have to say that Maya got me excited for all of about 8 seconds in this episode. I really thought when she mentioned Alec and Harry to Lucas at the RV point, that she was a mole or agent. Naaaaaa, turns out she started off dull and died dull!

Also, I did laugh out loud when they found Vaughn's body still in situ. How IG managed to keep a straight face I don't know.

[BravoNine]

(10-11-2010 08:03 PM)BoHenley Wrote:  a) Lucas should've given Harry the boiler suit... (What a great parallel to 8.4!)

It certainly would be a parallel......however, I think I'm more interested in knowing WHY Lucas knows Harry's clothing size, unless Lucas used to go pick up Harry's dry cleaning or something....hmmmmm wish they had explored their relationship more....

(10-11-2010 08:03 PM)BoHenley Wrote:  b) The Lucas shirt-off scene was basically unnecessary, but I AM NOT COMPLAINING! (One last look!) [notice she was indifferent...did that woman actually have a PULSE??)

Pulse? Maya? Never, that's like impossible!

(10-11-2010 08:03 PM)BoHenley Wrote:  c) In the end, I think Lucas stepped off the roof to save the team. He'd lost everything, including himself and any sort of future, and rather than kill Harry, it was the only way out for him.

Lucas fought his way back, he knew he had to put an end to the monster that is John, so he jumped, he sacrificed his life knowing there was no way out for himself, and that he wasn't gonna take anyone else down with him. He jumped so his team and Harry could be safe.

(10-11-2010 08:03 PM)BoHenley Wrote:  d) I agree with one of the (media) reviewers, that the Lucas/John storyline was a courageous idea. But I still feel sad that, in spite of Lucas's story, we lost a damn good SPOOK.

Lucas was a damn good spook, he was born to be a spook, whether he was John or Lucas, the guy was good at what he did, he had a talent in this business, if he didn't, he couldn't have pretended this long. And who knows, if he had met Harry first, maybe things would have been different. Considering how Lucas was able to run circles around the team all by himself, I am very impressed, heck Lucas can run a one-man operation to take down anyone if he can even keep Section D out of his way! WOW!

Yes the storyline was a very courageous try, I don't deny that, and maybe if the reasons weren't so convoluted and muddy it would have actually been a very amazing storyline.

(10-11-2010 08:07 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  I have to say that Maya got me excited for all of about 8 seconds in this episode. I really thought when she mentioned Alec and Harry to Lucas at the RV point, that she was a mole or agent. Naaaaaa, turns out she started off dull and died dull!

Even when she was angry, her voice sounded exactly the same, it's like she has no passion. She was extremely dull! I've seen ameobas with more personality!

(10-11-2010 08:07 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  Also, I did laugh out loud when they found Vaughn's body still in situ. How IG managed to keep a straight face I don't know.

Just imagine if we can see filming bloopers! LOL! Those would be hilarious, I mean, the show is so serious that it's gotta get to them at one point or another that what they're doing is completely ridiculous and they have no idea what's happening!

I just wanna see a dramatic stunt or something and have someone fall!

The thing I always come back to is the scene with Lucas/Ruth and all the struggling and fighting stuff, RA is such a big gentleman softie that he probably was worried that if he pushed too hard that he would hurt NW, poor thing must have been terrified! LOL! He's probably like saying sorry every other sentence!

[George]

[Onion Terror]

(10-11-2010 08:07 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  I have to say that Maya got me excited for all of about 8 seconds in this episode. I really thought when she mentioned Alec and Harry to Lucas at the RV point, that she was a mole or agent.

Yeah, I had that thought too. Glad this turned out not to be the case though; coudn't get along with the idea of her being an agent and therefore possibly having some long-term role in the show. Probably THE most uninteresting, unengaging peripheral character in 9 series of the show.

[Akira]

I really want bloopers - get on it BBC!

[femaleBertieWooster]

(10-11-2010 04:59 PM)NightOwl Wrote:  

(10-11-2010 08:57 AM)Caitlinhg Wrote:  The essence, of the following excerpt from an interview Marlon Brando did with Dick Cavett in 1973, works as a possible point the writers were trying to make via the Lucas/John story line:

"We [human beings] couldn't survive a second if we weren't able to act," Brando said. "Acting is a survival mechanism. It's a social unguent and it's a lubricant. We act to save our lives, actually, every day. People lie constantly every day by not saying something that they think, or [by] saying something that they didn't think."

"That's not acting," Cavett countered.

"That is acting," Brando insisted.

In other words, we are ALL actors and liars, everyday, if we truthfully reflect upon our own behavior; Lucas/John's story amplified those characteristics an hundred fold, but everyone on the grid and off, tell untruths to themselves and others, regularly. What makes Lucas/John so unforgivable, or the story line (from this point of view), so far fetched? The show is a lie, too, if you get down to it. The only "truths" about the show is that it is offered for entertainment, employs some wonderfully talented and creative people and draws a devoted audience. The characters we get attached to are really, unreal or untrue, lies, so to speak, yet... we fiercely defend them as if they weren't fabrications, but REAL, family even, so... we've deluded ourselves to care for imagined people that are actually just electrons being projected to us via our screens... yet... we FEEL passionately about them!

I say "Kudos to the KUDOS writers. Well done!"

See ya all [or most of ya all] next January when S10 commences. Seeing how Harry's baby "Section D" all came about throughout the years, would be fascinating to me... wonder who would get to play the young, Harry?

Every genre has it's conventions, and there are reasons why. One of conventions Spooks should be abiding by is that you don't turn your hero into the villain. But even if I give the Spooks writers a pass on this rule (and ignore series 7 and 8) and try to look at the story objectively, it doesn't work for me. The story is too poorly crafted.

It depends on too many coincidences: that two young Englishmen who look enough alike that one can use the other's passport meet each other in Dakar, that one has already applied to MI-5 but hasn't actually met anyone from MI-5, that neither seems to have any friends or relatives to report either missing.

Worst of all, no motivation is given or even suggested for why John blew up the embassy, developed a conscious, and continued to use Lucas's identity upon his return to England. From Alex's line to Harry about Lucas's story being a lie, I think we're meant to assume that Vaughn's flashback was the truer one. While I appreciate the idea and irony of a terrorist becoming someone who seeks to stop terrorism, I don't believe the change would happen within days or weeks, but rather be a gradual process of disillusionment over months or years.

Moreover, if seeing the destruction and death caused by the bomb was too much for John, how did he than bring himself to strangle Real Lucas? If the deaths weren't the reason, what was? Why didn't he try to do the good that Real Lucas would have done as John? There are plenty of ways he could have done good without becoming a spy for MI-5.

Nothing about this story makes sense to me. Nothing about this story even suggests that the writers tried to make it make sense. I feel like they started with the denouement of a showdown of Lucas and Harry and didn't care how they got there.

So I say to the the Kudos writers: Shame on you for this mess. Going forward you would do well to remember some basic rules that apply to all genres -
Character should drive plot, not the reverse.
Continuity and detail matter.
Respect the intelligence of your audience.

On a different note, why do so many people think that series 10 will involve a lengthy investigation into Harry's past? Since series 6 every cliffhanger has been resolved by the end of the first episode and every series arc barely mentioned in the next series. The writers could break with tradition, but my guess is that it already will have happened offscreen when the series begins, Harry will have been forced out, but will be recalled because of some crisis. I'd advise against getting your hopes up of getting any revelations or seeing old characters.

Very very very well thought out and stated.

[watchstrap]

(10-11-2010 04:30 PM)Onion Terror Wrote:  

(10-11-2010 12:44 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  ...and then PF fans get to miss out on the swapping clothes scene. Nice of Lucas get Harry something appropriate that fitted, no jeans and T-shirt for Harry!

Is it just me, or had Lucas somehow managed to get hold of the same suit Harry wore in that S4 episode where he goes to the dog track with Adam and Wes?!?!

I thought the suit looked at bit like one Vaughn wore in an earlier episode. Maybe Lucas did a quick alteration using his super sewing skills gained in a Russian prison making mail bags! When Lucas said 'strip' I got all excited, thought Harry was going to bare something but alas no.