Series 9 Episode 8 discussion

[Silktie]

I'm increasingly curious about the alternative ending they filmed. I wonder if it maybe included a more sticky end for Harry and a less certain one for Lucas? The reason I'm thinking this is due to the reaction shots we got after Lucas jumped, and specifically Ruth's. She was really sobbing her heart out, and I'm not sure that she would react like that just over Lucas' death. However much she may have liked him, the guy kidnapped her and drugged her, in effect making her think he's killing her with whatever he was injecting her with. Yet only a few hours later she cries her eyes out over his death? A few tears for him, sure, but not like that.

My speculation is that the reactions were rather meant for the alternative ending they shot, where perhaps Lucas actually shoots Harry and then disappears, and we're left wondering whether Harry will survive till next year. Maybe they changed it once it became clear that RA would not be available to appear in one or two episodes of the new season.

Those lucky enough to see NW in her play in December should ask her about it - we'd all like to know.

[HellsBells]

(12-11-2010 03:50 PM)Silktie Wrote:  My speculation is that the reactions were rather meant for the alternative ending they shot, where perhaps Lucas actually shoots Harry and then disappears, and we're left wondering whether Harry will survive till next year. Maybe they changed it once it became clear that RA would not be available to appear in one or two episodes of the new season.

Those lucky enough to see NW in her play in December should ask her about it - we'd all like to know.

Interesting idea, Silktie. A far better cliffhanger than the one we actually got. But I don't think Lucas would have shot Harry (I'm very blinkered when it comes to Lucas!).
Lucas wouldn't have needed to be in any further episodes he could have just dissappeared with no follow-up.

[Tea Lady]

(12-11-2010 03:50 PM)Silktie Wrote:  I'm increasingly curious about the alternative ending they filmed. I wonder if it maybe included a more sticky end for Harry and a less certain one for Lucas? The reason I'm thinking this is due to the reaction shots we got after Lucas jumped, and specifically Ruth's. She was really sobbing her heart out, and I'm not sure that she would react like that just over Lucas' death. However much she may have liked him, the guy kidnapped her and drugged her, in effect making her think he's killing her with whatever he was injecting her with. Yet only a few hours later she cries her eyes out over his death? A few tears for him, sure, but not like that.

My speculation is that the reactions were rather meant for the alternative ending they shot, where perhaps Lucas actually shoots Harry and then disappears, and we're left wondering whether Harry will survive till next year. Maybe they changed it once it became clear that RA would not be available to appear in one or two episodes of the new season.

Those lucky enough to see NW in her play in December should ask her about it - we'd all like to know.

If I was a betting person, I would say this was the other ending, or something very very similar. What did PF say in the Radio Times, "..the end of episode eight involves some blood - potentially on my costume." I wouldn't say there was near enough blood on his head to get on his shirt. No way. As for Lucas shooting Harry, maybe it was a fight. Harry came off worse not surprisingly. Harry was then in hospital recovering or at home recovering, when the HS phoned. Hence, we never saw it.

The other thing, was that Peter was seen filming at this venue in July and photo's were posted (the one with the fly away hair.) No one saw RA there. Also filming went on much longer than predicted this year. Wasn't that filming with Peter supposed to have been the last day? A re-shoot perhaps, done at the last minute?

[Onion Terror]

(12-11-2010 03:50 PM)Silktie Wrote:  I'm increasingly curious about the alternative ending they filmed. I wonder if it maybe included a more sticky end for Harry and a less certain one for Lucas? The reason I'm thinking this is due to the reaction shots we got after Lucas jumped, and specifically Ruth's. She was really sobbing her heart out, and I'm not sure that she would react like that just over Lucas' death. However much she may have liked him, the guy kidnapped her and drugged her, in effect making her think he's killing her with whatever he was injecting her with. Yet only a few hours later she cries her eyes out over his death? A few tears for him, sure, but not like that.

My speculation is that the reactions were rather meant for the alternative ending they shot, where perhaps Lucas actually shoots Harry and then disappears, and we're left wondering whether Harry will survive till next year. Maybe they changed it once it became clear that RA would not be available to appear in one or two episodes of the new season.

Those lucky enough to see NW in her play in December should ask her about it - we'd all like to know.

My best guess as to the alternative ending is that it involved us (the viewers) hearing a single gunshot, but not knowing whether Lucas had shot Harry or turned his gun on himself. Thus setting up the same sort of cliffhanger ending as at the end of series 4(in the sense of not knowing whether Harry survives into the next series)

[Maike]

Didn't PF mention something about blood on his costume (not saying whose blood?). I only noticed some blood on his face.

[Silktie]

(12-11-2010 04:56 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  

(12-11-2010 03:50 PM)Silktie Wrote:  I'm increasingly curious about the alternative ending they filmed. I wonder if it maybe included a more sticky end for Harry and a less certain one for Lucas? The reason I'm thinking this is due to the reaction shots we got after Lucas jumped, and specifically Ruth's. She was really sobbing her heart out, and I'm not sure that she would react like that just over Lucas' death. However much she may have liked him, the guy kidnapped her and drugged her, in effect making her think he's killing her with whatever he was injecting her with. Yet only a few hours later she cries her eyes out over his death? A few tears for him, sure, but not like that.

My speculation is that the reactions were rather meant for the alternative ending they shot, where perhaps Lucas actually shoots Harry and then disappears, and we're left wondering whether Harry will survive till next year. Maybe they changed it once it became clear that RA would not be available to appear in one or two episodes of the new season.

Those lucky enough to see NW in her play in December should ask her about it - we'd all like to know.

If I was a betting person, I would say this was the other ending, or something very very similar. What did PF say in the Radio Times, "..the end of episode eight involves some blood - potentially on my costume." I wouldn't say there was near enough blood on his head to get on his shirt. No way. As for Lucas shooting Harry, maybe it was a fight. Harry came off worse not surprisingly. Harry was then in hospital recovering or at home recovering, when the HS phoned. Hence, we never saw it.

The other thing, was that Peter was seen filming at this venue in July and photo's were posted (the one with the fly away hair.) No one saw RA there. Also filming went on much longer than predicted this year. Wasn't that filming with Peter supposed to have been the last day? A re-shoot perhaps, done at the last minute?

Or that phone call from the HS could have been meant for earlier in the episode - say before Harry goes off to confront Lucas on his own. Him knowing that his career is probably over would also contribute to his willingness to walk into the meeting with Lucas so willingly, despite knowing Lucas might kill him?

[tastiger]

(12-11-2010 03:17 PM)Logsie Wrote:  Anyway back to 9/8. I thought the dust had settled on John/Lucas's death but now I'm finding new straws to clutch at. Someone pointed out things to me about the rooftop scene which I hadn't noticed before. After we hear the scream and the car alarm there are clearly audible hurried footsteps and they don't sound distant like the other sounds drifting up from 26 storeys below. They sound close - very close. Also when Harry looks over the edge, he frowns, then looks to one side and then the other as if to say "where'd he go?" We don't know what Harry saw on the ground. I wonder if they have left things open so that John could turn up at a later date, or he could stay dead, depending on scripts and availability of RA.
I had already tried to conjure up a scenario where he could have survived this scene but all I could think of was that someone else crept onto that roof, possibly to take out Lucas in order to save Harry, and that L/J despatched him and threw him off the roof before making his escape. I couldn't see how he had the time though, because the other man would have to be dead or unconscious or else he'd scream all the way down. Then it dawned on me! Lucas was already on the roof, lying in wait for Harry, so there is no reason why he couldn't already have a convenient body stashed on the roof ready to chuck off. The body would be pretty messed up after a fall from that height, and L/J could have rearranged his face a bit before the drop; and nobody who knew him was on the ground, the rest of section D were still at London Bridge station. The mistake would show up at post-mortem, but by then John would be long gone.

One other thing. I'm not convinced Albany is a fake. I think the real one was in Harry's desk safe all the time and he switched it with the fake one in the church. The Chinese now believe they have a useless weapon which they will merely exploit for its deterrant value, but the British still have the real deal. Harry will have retrieved the real Albany file later and removed it to a safe location.

I love your scenario!! Now all I need is a way out for John when he killed the real Lucas....That's what I can't forgive. Can you think of a way to save our Lucas?

Lucas did use a decoy for himself earlier at the restaurant so your thought that he had another body thrown off the roof is very plausible. Also the Albany file....Harry did "conveniently" have an identical briefcase to replace with the one at the church....so again your theory does make sense.

If it wasn't for the reality of RA's very busy schedule I could see this as being the gotcha moment in series 10....

YOU should have been the writer for series 9.....

[Gazelle]

(08-11-2010 10:24 PM)Forever Secret Wrote:  GAZELLE! RUTH IS ALIVE! haha, we both had the feeling she was going to die... both wrong!
I agree it would have been nice to have Harry go back to office and see his team. to start with I thought Ruth may have been crying because she thought Harry had been shot. Harry also knew he was going to die, or thought so, that scene where he phones Catherine I was just convinced he would be killed because he was saying goodbye

I agree, I hope there's some more Ruth/Harry stuff in series 10 in a positive way, it would be good if they finally just got it together, but part of the fun is the will they wont they senario.

there was a little moment when he saved her in Ep8, an awww moment I saw

I just really hope Harry and Ruth sort everything out, they have a new understanding now, but now Ruth will always hold over him that he saved her instead of the thousand other who could have died, although if he explains Albany was fake and he knew it she may see it in a new light, or she might see it was him playing with lives.

Harry selling out?... Harry knew Albany was a fake, no one else did, but he had to make Lucas believe it was a fake... really he wasn't trading Albany for Ruth, he was trading his time in MI5 for her because now there the investigation in to him because he still sold a secret.

I agree the will they/won't they scenario's been good but I think they should move beyond this in S10! As for Ruth holding this Albany thing against Harry long term, that would hardly be fair given as how he did save her life (although I'm a little confused as couldn't it all have been avoided if he'd come out with the fact it didn't actually work to start with??) - I mean, if someone saves your life then surely principles have to go out the window a bit? Besides, you can't have it both ways... that is, Ruth can't blame Harry for not saving George and then turn on him for saving her...

[femaleBertieWooster]

(12-11-2010 07:18 PM)tastiger Wrote:  

(12-11-2010 03:17 PM)Logsie Wrote:  Anyway back to 9/8. I thought the dust had settled on John/Lucas's death but now I'm finding new straws to clutch at. Someone pointed out things to me about the rooftop scene which I hadn't noticed before. After we hear the scream and the car alarm there are clearly audible hurried footsteps and they don't sound distant like the other sounds drifting up from 26 storeys below. They sound close - very close. Also when Harry looks over the edge, he frowns, then looks to one side and then the other as if to say "where'd he go?" We don't know what Harry saw on the ground. I wonder if they have left things open so that John could turn up at a later date, or he could stay dead, depending on scripts and availability of RA.
I had already tried to conjure up a scenario where he could have survived this scene but all I could think of was that someone else crept onto that roof, possibly to take out Lucas in order to save Harry, and that L/J despatched him and threw him off the roof before making his escape. I couldn't see how he had the time though, because the other man would have to be dead or unconscious or else he'd scream all the way down. Then it dawned on me! Lucas was already on the roof, lying in wait for Harry, so there is no reason why he couldn't already have a convenient body stashed on the roof ready to chuck off. The body would be pretty messed up after a fall from that height, and L/J could have rearranged his face a bit before the drop; and nobody who knew him was on the ground, the rest of section D were still at London Bridge station. The mistake would show up at post-mortem, but by then John would be long gone.

One other thing. I'm not convinced Albany is a fake. I think the real one was in Harry's desk safe all the time and he switched it with the fake one in the church. The Chinese now believe they have a useless weapon which they will merely exploit for its deterrant value, but the British still have the real deal. Harry will have retrieved the real Albany file later and removed it to a safe location.

I love your scenario!! Now all I need is a way out for John when he killed the real Lucas....That's what I can't forgive. Can you think of a way to save our Lucas?

Lucas did use a decoy for himself earlier at the restaurant so your thought that he had another body thrown off the roof is very plausible. Also the Albany file....Harry did "conveniently" have an identical briefcase to replace with the one at the church....so again your theory does make sense.

If it wasn't for the reality of RA's very busy schedule I could see this as being the gotcha moment in series 10....

YOU should have been the writer for series 9.....

I also like the briefcase scenario. I got that suggestion on first watch. I also think you are right about Albany working. Harry has had years to think up ways to deceive all attempts on Albany.

I still haven't viewed the episode again but remember only a whirling sound which gave me the suggestion that something or somebody was on the way down from the building.

Regarding the crying at the grid, because of the editing I think they all thought Harry was going to die. Can someone explain why Harry would be standing on the rooftop 48 hours (or whatever the timeframe) later when he took the call from HS?

Of course it's a simple matter of discussing dental records in Season 10 to make the decision on John/Lucas. Then of course Lucas would have had years to compromise any files on himself.

[Gazelle]

(12-11-2010 04:56 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  

(12-11-2010 03:50 PM)Silktie Wrote:  I'm increasingly curious about the alternative ending they filmed. I wonder if it maybe included a more sticky end for Harry and a less certain one for Lucas? The reason I'm thinking this is due to the reaction shots we got after Lucas jumped, and specifically Ruth's. She was really sobbing her heart out, and I'm not sure that she would react like that just over Lucas' death. However much she may have liked him, the guy kidnapped her and drugged her, in effect making her think he's killing her with whatever he was injecting her with. Yet only a few hours later she cries her eyes out over his death? A few tears for him, sure, but not like that.

My speculation is that the reactions were rather meant for the alternative ending they shot, where perhaps Lucas actually shoots Harry and then disappears, and we're left wondering whether Harry will survive till next year. Maybe they changed it once it became clear that RA would not be available to appear in one or two episodes of the new season.

Those lucky enough to see NW in her play in December should ask her about it - we'd all like to know.

If I was a betting person, I would say this was the other ending, or something very very similar. What did PF say in the Radio Times, "..the end of episode eight involves some blood - potentially on my costume." I wouldn't say there was near enough blood on his head to get on his shirt. No way. As for Lucas shooting Harry, maybe it was a fight. Harry came off worse not surprisingly. Harry was then in hospital recovering or at home recovering, when the HS phoned. Hence, we never saw it.

The other thing, was that Peter was seen filming at this venue in July and photo's were posted (the one with the fly away hair.) No one saw RA there. Also filming went on much longer than predicted this year. Wasn't that filming with Peter supposed to have been the last day? A re-shoot perhaps, done at the last minute?

Perhaps this is why the footage of Harry at the end was taken from the E1 balcony scene (ok, this isn't proven but seems pretty likely as others have pointed out) - I guess NW and the rest had other commitments and couldn't come back to film an extra scene...