Series 9 Episode 8 discussion

[binkie]

(02-12-2010 04:21 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  I dislike the idea of a split personality because Spooks is not that sort of drama.

I know what you mean, HellsBells, and I don't look to an espionage drama to provide me with a medical narrative either (certainly not when it is done as badly as this was). However, Spooks has a pretty solid history in posing questions around what it is that MI5 officers are required to give up in service, and how hard they have to work to maintain a sense of personal and emotional identity that is separate from the identity of responsibility and duty they are required to assume in order to be successful in that service. If season 9 had been more rigorously scrutinised for internal logic and thematic coherence, it might in fact have made an excellent job of exposing and assessing the potential offered by the 'split personality' route. I could actually quite warm to the idea of the legend with a life of its own, oblivious to the origin of its creation, and the implications for the created-identity of being required to accept that it was a fiction. This would have allowed for some interesting confrontation with the idea that all the effort and compromise and sacrifice and suffering that went into the survival of Lucas in prison ultimately enabled the survival of John: someone to whose capture and detention Lucas would have been dedicated. If season 9 wanted a betrayal, how much more of a betrayal could they want?

One of the most obvious problems with the John-is-Lucas storyline, from the point of view of the writing, is the extent to which there appears to have been no executive decision taken as to a consistent portrayal of EITHER discrete and self-contained personae (Lucas and John) each of whom were ignorant of the existence of the other, and who shared neither conscious or unconscious interaction or influence, OR John as the conscious conveyor of the fiction of Lucas.

Equally, a further considerable problem with the Lucas-is-John storyline exists on a purely structural level as far as viewer investment is concerned. Partly because of the lack of clarity regarding the Lucas/John question of who-is-who-and-what-do-they-know?, season 9 seems to be asking us to identify with, sympathise with, and feel emotional attachment to the character of John, apparently simply because he looks like Lucas and uses the same name. Lucas going over the edge of the building because he realised he was a fiction - that he really was no one - represents, and requires, quite a different emotional response for the viewer than John going over the edge because he had been found out for a fantasist. The trauma of missed opportunities just keeps on coming!

[Byatil]

(02-12-2010 07:49 PM)binkie Wrote:  Lucas going over the edge of the building because he realised he was a fiction - that he really was no one - represents, and requires, quite a different emotional response for the viewer than John going over the edge because he had been found out for a fantasist. The trauma of missed opportunities just keeps on coming!

That would have been a considerable deal more tragic! If Lucas had found out that he wasn't in fact who he thought he was, and had to struggle with the returning memories of a past life... that would have created so much more sympathy for the character. The should have played on the potential of Lucas-is-vulnerable, instead of murdering the ridiculous concept of Lucas-is-evil!

Personally, by the time Lucas had disappeared, I just didn't care anymore. He was no longer the character I had been watching for 2 series, and indeed, was no longer the character he had portrayed in those two series. John Bateman is a completely different man, by all accounts. He acts/behaves different, speaks differently - he's an entirely different character. Almost reminds me of the degeneration of Othello in Shakespeare's tragedy! Throughout the play, he becomes increasingly similar to the 'villain' of the tragedy, in terms of his speech, thought and actions. Which is practically what we see with Lucas, as he transfers from a well-intentioned, loyal man, to one who is intent on destruction.

After thinking I would find the end of S9 very sad, I was left disappointed. I was more upset when Adam died, and I'd only seen him in action in 7.1!

[BoHenley]

Missed opportunities really summaries that storyline, doesn't it? So much the writers could've (and should've) done, but chose to ignore it and go for the "crash bang" impact of the final episodes and the ludicrous Lucas-is-John plot. SOME parts were quite good. Lucas's final internal conflict with the "John" persona was really quite well done (on second viewing). But if they'd really investigated the personal costs to a mentally tortured character - how good would that have been?

And yes, Byatil, I still feel disappointed about the ending. And I do think Lucas stepped off the roof - watch Harry's reaction, particularly when he wipes his hand over his face. Still doesn't explain those bloody footsteps.

[binkie]

(02-12-2010 07:57 PM)Byatil Wrote:  

(02-12-2010 07:49 PM)binkie Wrote:  Lucas going over the edge of the building because he realised he was a fiction - that he really was no one - represents, and requires, quite a different emotional response for the viewer than John going over the edge because he had been found out for a fantasist. The trauma of missed opportunities just keeps on coming!

That would have been a considerable deal more tragic! If Lucas had found out that he wasn't in fact who he thought he was, and had to struggle with the returning memories of a past life... that would have created so much more sympathy for the character. The should have played on the potential of Lucas-is-vulnerable, instead of murdering the ridiculous concept of Lucas-is-evil!

Byatil, are you secretly me, and should we ask Spooks for royalties? I agree, the returning memories thing is just another thing this season seems to have been confused about: a good idea poorly executed because no one took the time to consider the structural implications. How much more intriguing would it have been for Lucas - whose active memory is such a vital part of his character - to find himself recalling memories which were not his? Instead, we were subjected to illogically presented snatches of Lucas' prison experiences as a sort of will-this-do? fill for the idea of what we have to assume is John's vulnerable psyche.

It's not that I'm particulalry keen for Lucas to be presented in a shiny box with VICTIM written all over it, but I can't be the only person whose response to Vaughan's question about what it had been like being Lucas North was: "Well, it's been pretty much entirely rubbish, actually. How much time have you got?"

Another missed opportunity for the list. BoHenley, are you keeping track of these?

[Byatil]

(02-12-2010 08:11 PM)binkie Wrote:  It's not that I'm particulalry keen for Lucas to be presented in a shiny box with VICTIM written all over it, but I can't be the only person whose response to Vaughan's question about what it had been like being Lucas North was: "Well, it's been pretty much entirely rubbish, actually. How much time have you got?"

You don't half make me laugh sometimes!

Honestly, if anything, I appreciate S9 for giving me the determination to one-day write a script for a TV-show that is coherent and actually makes sense. 9.8 could have been an elaborate attempt to encourage young screen-writers everywhere to try just a little bit harder? You do have to wonder who is paying these people, surely someone on the team would have brought up the discrepancies in the script at some point?

The main problem for me is that like it or not, Lucas was always portrayed as a victim. A victim of the state, of Harry, of Sarah, and of himself. So where the logical progression from 'victim' to 'soulless murderer' lies, I'm not entirely sure

[BravoNine]

(02-12-2010 07:37 PM)Byatil Wrote:  The other thing that I found odd was that Lucas was apparently so... mentally impaired before he even joined MI5 and was captured in Russia. His mental issues post-Russia can all be explained through his torture and captivity, however we are offered no explanation as to why exactly John felt the need to "be somebody"? He supposedly had a promising future but just fell in with the wrong crowd... however, how can this argument be supported through anything Lucas has ever told us? Supposedly he grew up in "the Cumbrian countryside" with a "Methodist minister" for a Father. If we believe that to be true, surely Lucas would have had it drilled into him that drugs = bad? The involvement with the drugs trade could be perceived as him "rebelling against authority", but it still seems like an incredibly stupid thing for someone of Lucas' apparently high intelligence to do. If he's smart enough to create an entire persona and indeed, fool the national security service for 10 years+, then why exactly was he stupid enough to get involved in a drugs plot in the first place?

Exactly my issue!

The apparent stupidity of Lucas/John becomes more glaringly obvious the more I go back to re-analyze the whole Series 9 storyline.

(02-12-2010 07:37 PM)Byatil Wrote:  As to RA's availability... as I assume "The Hobbit" will largely be filmed in the New Zealand Summer (ie now), wouldn't that leave him free for filming in British Summertime? Even if only for a few 'flashback' scenes, or something similar. I have no idea of any other known filming commitments of his, so please correct me if I'm wrong!

There's news that he's gonna be leaving Strike Back's second season because of filming for the Hobbit, but even if he leaves, he will still have to film a closure for his character's storylines.

And besides, Martin Freeman has been given time off to do Sherlock's second series, so I don't see why RA can't get some time to film for Strike Back or Spooks.

[Byatil]

(02-12-2010 10:19 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  There's news that he's gonna be leaving Strike Back's second season because of filming for the Hobbit, but even if he leaves, he will still have to film a closure for his character's storylines.

And besides, Martin Freeman has been given time off to do Sherlock's second series, so I don't see why RA can't get some time to film for Strike Back or Spooks.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. He should be able to participate in 2 or 3 projects at once (assuming it all fits in his diary!), so I'm still hopeful that he may return to Spooks! Should be interesting to see if Lucas is mentioned in S10 or if they leave that ending very much open to speculation.

[BravoNine]

(02-12-2010 10:21 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Should be interesting to see if Lucas is mentioned in S10 or if they leave that ending very much open to speculation.

Well, if they are gonna go into Harry's inquiry for next series, then I'm sure Lucas will be mentioned considering he is the one responsible for this big Albany mess.

But how he will be remembered is the real question.

[Byatil]

(02-12-2010 10:30 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(02-12-2010 10:21 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Should be interesting to see if Lucas is mentioned in S10 or if they leave that ending very much open to speculation.

Well, if they are gonna go into Harry's inquiry for next series, then I'm sure Lucas will be mentioned considering he is the one responsible for this big Albany mess.

But how he will be remembered is the real question.

Well, that's what I mean. They might gloss over the enquiry. Should be interesting to see how they handle 10.1 Whatever they do, I just hope it's well-written!

[WhiteSwan]

(02-12-2010 10:34 PM)Byatil Wrote:  

(02-12-2010 10:30 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(02-12-2010 10:21 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Should be interesting to see if Lucas is mentioned in S10 or if they leave that ending very much open to speculation.

Well, if they are gonna go into Harry's inquiry for next series, then I'm sure Lucas will be mentioned considering he is the one responsible for this big Albany mess.

But how he will be remembered is the real question.

Well, that's what I mean. They might gloss over the enquiry. Should be interesting to see how they handle 10.1 Whatever they do, I just hope it's well-written!

I've given up any hope that we will get a plausible explanation for the LN/JB story, because there doesn't seem to be any logical way out of that whole mess! So my guess is that the writers of S10 will do exactly the same thing the writers of S9 did - they will assume that the audience is just plain stupid and will buy any ridiculous storyline even if there is no connection with things they had been told in previous series. So unless they come up with that wonderful idea of Lucas only having a nightmare about being in fact JB I have to admit I don't care anymore. For me JB is among the most despicable characters of S9 and I couldn't care less if he survived or not. The character I love is Lucas and from now on I will have my own stories concerning him. I don't need those writers for that!