Series 10 - Episode 6 Discussion

[Alpha One]

(27-10-2011 09:09 PM)Betty Wrote:  I've decided I'm going to ask Peter Firth and Nicola Walker if there was anything extra there at the beginning of season 10. I don't know how I'll do this--I don't live in the U.K. and I'm scared of flying, so I won't be standing at any theater doors like some of you lucky ones. I just know that it would make me feel better if either of one of them (or perhaps a writer) said "yes".

I'm mostly a lurker and enjoying your posts and discussions. Did I hear there was going to be a commentary for episode 1? If so, that may give you your answer.

In the commentary for S6 episode 1, the writer and producer talked the Adam/Ros relationship and how the 'waking up together' scene had been included after filming as shorthand to tell viewers the relationship had moved on.

So the commentary may tell us if this was considered in S10. Here's hoping. I would love to know how the producers/writers saw the Harry/Ruth relationship and why they chose to kill Ruth. I'm clinging to the hope they did it for better reasons than just to shock fans and 'it's Spooks'.

[Sparky]

Just a very quick thought, at the end of 10.2 when Harry is chatting to Erin about their lives as spies and the sacrifices they make, he comments that they must sacrifice themselves, but also must sacrifice the ones they love the most (paraphrasing here) to do the job effectively - this certainly came true! I think a few more things might creep into my sub-conscious once I've had chance to fully reflect and watch the full series all over again.

[molecatcher]

On 2nd viewing I got the impression Ruth walked up to Sasha and pushed against him as if she felt she could stop him by putting her body between him and Harry. Sasha looked as shocked as she did when she stepped back wounded. I'm not so sure he intended to stab her let alone kill her.

[Onion Terror]

(27-10-2011 09:45 PM)Gillymac Wrote:  The only thing that you can take as gospel as having happened in the spooks universe is what you see on the screen in front of you and the words you hear spoken by the actors playing the characters.

That is how scripted drama works.

Good ones, like spooks, strike triggers in the minds of the viewer which in turn fuel your imagination, makes you give a damn and keeps you tuning in each week (which is the whole point - to hook you) - but here's the rub -what you feel, think, imagine, want or wish for those characters doesn't come into it I'm afraid, because ultimately simply projecting your own wishes onto characters, doesn't make them behave the way you want them to. Just because it's in your head, doesn't make it so.

Brilliantly put; love it.

[A Cousin]

I too thought that the partnership went through - papers signed, hands shaken, pictures taken. Done deal. I think that is also why Harry was allowed back into the MI-5 fold at the end. Officially, he was brought in out of the cold to protect Ilya and make sure this deal went through. And that's what happened. He did his job. At great personal cost to just about everyone.

(28-10-2011 06:31 AM)Tea Lady Wrote:  Going back to Ruth's...err...passing... I can see why she did step forward. I posted elsewhere that it was because Sasha had just lost his mother and perhaps both parents. Ruth knows what it is like for a child to lose a parent, in her own life and with Nico. I'm not surprised she pushed herself forward. I just would have expected Harry to have anticipated what Sasha was going to do. If Sasha didn't have a weapon, he certainty was going to use his fists.

I really liked that insight. You also mentioned that Ruth of S3 or S4 would probably have gone back to the bunker (or gone looking for a handy tree branch ) when Harry told her too, but not S10 Ruth.

Now that cooler minds seem to be reigning, I hope I can say this now without starting another fire-storm. Because that is not my intent. I do not in any way wish to trivialize anyone else's opinions re: the death of Ruth. It was tragic and senseless and painful and sad and dismaying and upsetting and horrific and all those other words I can use to describe the howls of pain associated with it. All of which I share. I was as affected by her loss as everyone else. But, as JHyde said earlier, therein lay the drama. Just trying to have a conversation about intent and structure.

I think there was some symbolic intent involved with the killing of Ruth that, for me, was successfully executed. Much like The Saga of Lucas in years past, The Saga of Harry and Ruth had kind of taken on a life of it's own. The creators intentionally placed Harry & Ruth in the centre of this series for a reason. Much earlier in this thread, someone (I forget who) mentioned that 10.6 put a stake through the heart of Spooks. By having Sasha stab Ruth and put an end to the relationship of Harry and Ruth, the Producer proclaimed "heart of the programme," they put an end to the programme itself. The pain of losing this programme for us is almost as much as the pain of losing Ruth for Harry. For me, that is what is meant by a definitive ending for Spooks.

[Gillymac]

Once again A Cousin hits it out of the park....

(28-10-2011 01:24 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  I think there was some symbolic intent involved with the killing of Ruth that, for me, was successfully executed. Much like The Saga of Lucas in years past, The Saga of Harry and Ruth had kind of taken on a life of it's own. The creators intentionally placed Harry & Ruth in the centre of this series for a reason. Much earlier in this thread, someone (I forget who) mentioned that 10.6 put a stake through the heart of Spooks. By having Sasha stab Ruth and put an end to the relationship of Harry and Ruth, the Producer proclaimed "heart of the programme," they put an end to the programme itself. The pain of losing this programme for us is almost as much as the pain of losing Ruth for Harry. For me, that is what is meant by a definitive ending for Spooks.

However, since "cooler heads are reigning" (love it!) at the moment allow me to share another thought...

I remain resolute in my belief that the finale delivered the best ending for spooks. Additionally, I don't interpret it as "sad". There is tragedy in Ruth's death most certainly, but in the scenes leading up to her death we see Ruth forgive Harry, thus enabling him to forgive himself regarding the Elena mess. We see her offer him a way out if he wants it. However there is an important caveat to her offer. She says; "leave the service - WITH ME". Implicit in this of course is that she wouldn't want him to leave without her. So he honours her wishes after her death. Importantly, he does so with a clear concience. With her final words, she absolves him of any guilt he feels towards her. Someone on twitter called her "Ruth the Truth"- how appropriate. She says; "Harry, we were never meant to have any of those things." And they both know that's the truth.

Harry avenges her, pays tribute to her (and her fallen colleagues), then does what she would want him to do and go back to work. Those final seconds, while the phone rings, the look of doubt in his eyes, replaced with the ever familiar steely determination as he snatches up the receiver - Masterly, imperious, playing by Peter Firth. I'm in no doubt that Harry comes through his grief a stronger, better Section Chief, and I sleep soundly in my bed knowing that he is in charge.

---Reality Check Time. Please Don't Shoot Me--

From a practical point of view, consider for a moment what would have happened if H&R had got their happy ending or if Ruth had lived (both of which were entirely possible, if not my personal preferred course of action)? The people on the forums now asking for an alternative ending, would be bombarding Kudos with requests for "spin off!" "more!". Looking at this from a purely business perspective it is my opinion that Kudos wanted to (maybe had to - money looked short this series) 'end' spooks - for the meantime anyway (and certainly in this incarnation), because, lets face it, the door hasn't been closed entirely shut. It is entirely possible that it was worth alienating that minority of fans (the loss in DVD sales, by my reckoning, won't bankrupt them) to be rid of it, and they never would have been without this particular course of action. They aren't going to base decisions on the wishes of maybe 100 viewers out of five and a half million. The hard fact of the matter is that that's not how the business works.

[Blackcoat]

(28-10-2011 03:18 PM)Gillymac Wrote:  Additionally, I don't interpret it as "sad". There is tragedy in Ruth's death most certainly, but in the scenes leading up to her death we see Ruth forgive Harry, thus enabling him to forgive himself regarding the Elena mess. We see her offer him a way out if he wants it. However there is an important caveat to her offer. She says; "leave the service - WITH ME". Implicit in this of course is that she wouldn't want him to leave without her. So he honours her wishes after her death. Importantly, he does so with a clear concience. With her final words, she absolves him of any guilt he feels towards her. Someone on twitter called her "Ruth the Truth"- how appropriate. She says; "Harry, we were never meant to have any of those things." And they both know that's the truth.

Harry avenges her, pays tribute to her (and her fallen colleagues), then does what she would want him to do and go back to work. Those final seconds, while the phone rings, the look of doubt in his eyes, replaced with the ever familiar steely determination as he snatches up the receiver - Masterly, imperious, playing by Peter Firth. I'm in no doubt that Harry comes through his grief a stronger, better Section Chief, and I sleep soundly in my bed knowing that he is in charge.

I agree with you! Previously, I found the ending was too sad. Because it looked to me Harry returned to The Grid/The Service as he did not have anywhere else to go. It was heartbreaking thought, especially after seeing his agonising face during Ilya's "a tortoise in the garden" speech. I thought he completely lost life outside of the service.
But after a while, I came to think he went back to The Grid with firm determination because that's where he should be. After all, spirits of Ruth and colleagues who lost their lives in the past are all there, and now his entire life too.

So do you think Harry once accepted Ruth's offer, leaving the service with her? I thought he did as he smiled to her. (I loved that smile, by the way...)

[Gillymac]

I loved the smile too, and yes, I think he would have done actually - they finally seemed to be on the same page, at the same time, but fate has always been against them and I think Ruth understood this even if Harry never did (as someone else very astutely pointed out earlier, he did the majority of chasing) - hence her final words to him. I'm not devoid of imagination and (although, it may well appear otherwise) I don't have a heart of stone, but I've never, ever (even in the fluffiest corners of my skull) been able to envisage the two of them as a couple, and I certainly can't picture Harry 'out of harness' so to speak. He's a born spook. Harry in retirement would be like victor Meldrew. If Victor Meldrew could kill you with one hand...

[pookster]

Shivers ... I just imagined Harry doing the 'I do not believe it ' speech that Victor does. Very weird. LOL.

[Tea Lady]

(28-10-2011 03:18 PM)Gillymac Wrote:  ---Reality Check Time. Please Don't Shoot Me--

From a practical point of view, consider for a moment what would have happened if H&R had got their happy ending or if Ruth had lived (both of which were entirely possible, if not my personal preferred course of action)? The people on the forums now asking for an alternative ending, would be bombarding Kudos with requests for "spin off!" "more!". Looking at this from a purely business perspective it is my opinion that Kudos wanted to (maybe had to - money looked short this series) 'end' spooks - for the meantime anyway (and certainly in this incarnation), because, lets face it, the door hasn't been closed entirely shut. It is entirely possible that it was worth alienating that minority of fans (the loss in DVD sales, by my reckoning, won't bankrupt them) to be rid of it, and they never would have been without this particular course of action. They aren't going to base decisions on the wishes of maybe 100 viewers out of five and a half million. The hard fact of the matter is that that's not how the business works.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "to be rid of it" Gillymac. Do you mean the Harry/Ruth relationship? Do you mean the "thing" that kept many many people watching Spooks and helped attract a new generation of fans? Do you mean the relationship and on screen chemistry that kept millions of people glued to their tv sets (not 100 viewers, I beg to differ) and had the critics praising Peter and Nicola from the rafters?

It's quite possible that without Ruth coming back, Spooks would not have made 10 series. I doubt very much that Kudos felt it was an albatross around their necks, forcing them into this final decision. If that was the case, why bring Nicola back in S8? Why have the proposal in 9.1? Why not Harry have his "Connie" girlfriend in S7 as was muted. This relationship helped Kudos. Fact. They used this relationship and it helped the series last as long as it did.

I wanted an alternative ending. I am not a unicorn fancier and many H/R fans are also not. I just get the feeling "we" are all being clubbed together like a single entity. I have previously stated my ideas for an alternative non fluffy ending and won't repete these. Just because you are a Harry/Ruth fan does not make you a complete nutter, dressing in blue wrap dresses all the time and going to bed wearing a "Harry loves Ruth t-shirt." I would not have bombarded Kudos with anything if there had been an alternative, happy/open/non Ruth death ending. And I certainly would not have asked for a "Terry and June" type spin off show.

Kudos chose the ending they did, because it was what "everyone" had come to expect from Spooks. Why go down a different route and do something different? Because it's not Spooks. Yeh, ok. I hear you. I can see the read through now of episode 10.6, they just took the script from episode 4.7 and crossed Fiona out and wrote Ruth's name and crossed Adam's name out and put Harry's name there. What a fitting tribute to ten years of Spooks. Another miserable, same old, same old, ending.