Series 10 - Episode 6 Discussion

[beatrice4ruth]

Tea Lady - Thank you so much I have been trying to convey the same message over and over. Unfortunately, somehow it was not heard and worse misinterpreted.

Your words reflect exactly my opinion about the bleak conclusion of Spooks. I am not yet a nutter; I might be on my way to become one... I have never understood the antagonism of some fans and perhaps even the producers of Kudos toward the love story of Harry and Ruth, which was so understated. It seems that Kudos has resented the popularity of Harry and Ruth, created by two extraordinary actors and not by the writers.

A few months ago, when I heard that Ruth was going to die, I thought to myself. Kudos cannot replicate the death of Fiona in Adam's arms. It would so cliche and obvious. Well, I was wrong.

Do Harry's fans really want to see him so desolate? and even worse unable to do his job if he continues to self-destruct as he did in series 9 and 10. Who saved him from himself? Ruth who became a better spy than he did. Why on earth did Kudos think that the fans were going to buy the image of Harry the stoic savor of Britain after his recent track record?

I will no longer enjoy the terrific storylines of Spooks. I will not be able to watch Spooks not because of Ruth's death, but because of Harry's unbearable pain at losing her.

[Nitrus]

beatrice4ruth, you are very much a 'unicorn fancier' as TL would put it. It's all you've posted about for the past 5 days.

TL knows (I hope) that I don't see her as a HR nutter, so when she says that she's unhappy with the ending, I know that it will be for a more tangible reason such as she just wants Harry to happy rather than an incessant need for HR to succeed through all.

I am a huge fan of Harry's and yes I want him to suffer grief and anguish and pain. But most importantly I want him to come through it and keep doing what he has been doing. That's what makes the character, his resilience and ability to come through everything in order to protect the country. If Harry had left the service because of Ruth then it would have been a lie to his character, I invested in the character that was resilient and true to his country no matter what, if I had been dealt a character who wimped out after Ruth's death or a character that was only doing it because of a mystical happy ending, then I would have felt cheated.

I don't understand why people who wanted a happy ending feel cheated, Spooks has never given you any reason or basis with which to form that conclusion, other than what NW supposedly told people. I have no sympathy for people who ruined the ending for themselves by reading spoilers or asking actors.

[Betty]

Just want to say for the record that my head is quite cool now, yet I still see this Harry/Ruth business very differently from some of you! I think that part of the problem is that Peter Firth really plays the yen and yang of Harry so well: when he's with Ruth, we see the vulnerable center of the man--he's awkward and diffident and even boyish. These are appealing qualities in a hero who seems mostly all-knowing and invulnerable (hate to point out the obvious, but boyish vulnerability is probably more appealing to women, especially to 40 plus year-old former wallflowers who identify with Ruth).

I know that it drives some people nuts that the HR romance became so inflated in the minds of a few (well, it could be more than a few...we'll never know). And I don't care for soap opera-ish plots normally (Downton Abbey is driving me bats at the moment), so I do feel a bit ashamed of myself for getting caught up in this. But I CAN say that I didn't make up or exaggerate the intense chemistry between those characters; the fault for that chemistry and the ensuing tragedy lies with Peter Firth, Nicola Walker, and a couple of story-hungry writers who smelled blood in the water. Ar-oooooooo! (That was a howling sound.) Of all possible endings, they probably chose the best from a dramatic point of view. I don't know that I'll ever stop wishing, though, that they'd chosen the most merciful...

[A Cousin]

(28-10-2011 03:18 PM)Gillymac Wrote:  There is tragedy in Ruth's death most certainly, but in the scenes leading up to her death we see Ruth forgive Harry, thus enabling him to forgive himself regarding the Elena mess.

Harry avenges her, pays tribute to her (and her fallen colleagues), then does what she would want him to do and go back to work.... I'm in no doubt that Harry comes through his grief a stronger, better Section Chief, and I sleep soundly in my bed knowing that he is in charge.

For me it comes down to whether or not creators did what they said they were going to do. I keep reminding myself that the episode did not end with Ruth dying. It ended with Harry deciding to return to work. I did not feel like Harry was left a broken and desolate leader. That would mean that he has learned nothing from the action of series and would most certainly not honour Ruth's memory in his mind or mine. I actually thought quite the opposite, as you list above. This is completely my fantasy, because I do like to indulge fantasy when it comes to Harry and Ruth, but I like to think that she is always whispering in his ear challenging his decisions. I like to think that he would always ask himself, What would Ruth think/do? Moreover, he knows exactly where his line is now and, more importantly, that it is not a weakness to have it. Ruth taught him that.

And Gillymac, I'm going to ignore the rest of your post because, to be blunt, it makes assumptions about the projected actions of others which is something no man can decide for another.

(28-10-2011 07:17 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  Just because you are a Harry/Ruth fan does not make you a complete nutter, dressing in blue wrap dresses all the time and going to bed wearing a "Harry loves Ruth t-shirt."

Speak for yourself, TeaLady! I didn't get "Harry Ruth" tatooed on my ass for nothing! That was painful!

Speaking as someone who was very invested in the Harry & Ruth dynamic but who also accepts the ending as written, we all come at this from our own POV's, all of which are as individual as we are ourselves. I felt there was sufficient redemption for both Harry & Ruth in their final conversation B.S. (Before Sasha). They were finally on the same page. For me, it didn't need to go any further than that.

(28-10-2011 07:17 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  Kudos chose the ending they did, because it was what "everyone" had come to expect from Spooks. Why go down a different route and do something different? Because it's not Spooks. Yeh, ok. I hear you. I can see the read through now of episode 10.6, they just took the script from episode 4.7 and crossed Fiona out and wrote Ruth's name and crossed Adam's name out and put Harry's name there. What a fitting tribute to ten years of Spooks. Another miserable, same old, same old, ending.

OK. I can totally see the regurgitation of Fiona's death in Ruth's death. But it's not like they haven't done that kind of thing before and we have been able to mark it off as familiar and move on to what it means in the bigger picture? Perhaps it was one leap too many? Because if I have one quibble about SV & JB its that they can be a bit over-ambitious and only succeed in confusing their audience.

Maybe my issue is that I have been unable to come up with a different resolution to Harry & Ruth that will pack the same punch re: the ending of Spooks thematically? None of the fanfic has done it for me yet either. (And you know I like to indulge a little fanfic fantasy. It helps me work through things....)

(29-10-2011 12:20 AM)Betty Wrote:  Ar-oooooooo! (That was a howling sound.) Of all possible endings, they probably chose the best from a dramatic point of view. I don't know that I'll ever stop wishing, though, that they'd chosen the most merciful...

Well stated Betty. I wish that too. But I can see why they didn't. Not for mindless shock value, lazy story-telling or even disdainful disregard of the fans wishes. I think they did it because they were making a very difficult point about the heroic tenacity of those in the service as embodied by one heroic, strong, dedicated, dutiful, decent but ultimately very human, haunted and imperfect man.

Oh and, a little rounder with the lips and support from the diaphragm and the howl will be perfection! I'm really good at it by now. I do it every time I watch the last 15 minutes of 10.6 - despite all my pseudo-intellectual pontification about Greek Tragedy.

[Betty]

I agree about the intentions of the writers. And the more I look at this as Harry's story, the more I get what the others are saying.

[daphne]

(28-10-2011 09:52 AM)molecatcher Wrote:  On 2nd viewing I got the impression Ruth walked up to Sasha and pushed against him as if she felt she could stop him by putting her body between him and Harry. Sasha looked as shocked as she did when she stepped back wounded. I'm not so sure he intended to stab her let alone kill her.

thank you. my take is along the same lines- I thought I was alone..

I saw the scene as 3 people in an emotional daze- not quite themselves- their professional instincts 'off'- mental and physical faculties slowed just enough to take that crucial edge off response time..

I saw Harry and Ruth and Sasha as 'naked' for the moment- not-Spooks, 'just' human beings.

Sasha's world has been torn asunder. he's a walking mass of inchoate rage, grief. propelled by pain. this viewer doubts he had a plan.

Ruth is heady with having been promised more happiness than she has ever allowed herself to ask/reach for in life.

and Harry, perhaps for the only time in 10 seasons, had stepped down for the moment, both intellectually and emotionally, from his chair.. as head of Section-D.

an ineluctable accident

that is what makes the scene 'Tragic' in the "Classical" sense, for me.
3 individuals caught up, tangled in 'Fate', because of who they are- (Aristotle- the inevitability of consequence..)

[JHyde]

(28-10-2011 07:17 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  I can see the read through now of episode 10.6, they just took the script from episode 4.7 and crossed Fiona out and wrote Ruth's name and crossed Adam's name out and put Harry's name there. What a fitting tribute to ten years of Spooks. Another miserable, same old, same old, ending.

Wow, I wouldn't go that far. 10.6 was a much better episode in all sorts of ways.

[Silktie]

(29-10-2011 03:22 AM)A Cousin Wrote:  For me it comes down to whether or not creators did what they said they were going to do. I keep reminding myself that the episode did not end with Ruth dying. It ended with Harry deciding to return to work. I did not feel like Harry was left a broken and desolate leader. That would mean that he has learned nothing from the action of series and would most certainly not honour Ruth's memory in his mind or mine. I actually thought quite the opposite, as you list above. This is completely my fantasy, because I do like to indulge fantasy when it comes to Harry and Ruth, but I like to think that she is always whispering in his ear challenging his decisions. I like to think that he would always ask himself, What would Ruth think/do? Moreover, he knows exactly where his line is now and, more importantly, that it is not a weakness to have it. Ruth taught him that.

This is my take on it too. Do I like to think of a Harry that only has his job to give his life meaning now? No. It breaks my heart. But am I proud of him for being able to do so? Absolutely.

Throughout the series, Ruth has been the only reason Harry would leave the Service for. Even in season 9, when he kept on saying how disillusioned he was with the job, he didn't leave after Ruth rejected his proposal. Because those are the two things of value in his life: his service to the country he loves so much, and Ruth. In the end he couldn't bring himself to leave unless it meant a life with Ruth. So I agree with those who said if Ruth had lived, Harry would have left the Service to be with her. But it was not to be, so he returns to the other thing that gives his life meaning and commits fully to it by the end: the job. I respect him for having the strength of character to make that choice.

Quote: And Gillymac, I'm going to ignore the rest of your post because, to be blunt, it makes assumptions about the projected actions of others which is something no man can decide for another.

Yep. None of us can fully understand what another is experiencing when watching the show. I can only do my best to articulate my own feelings about it, and allow others to do the same, rather than try and do it for them.

[Tea Lady]

(29-10-2011 03:22 AM)A Cousin Wrote:  

(28-10-2011 07:17 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  Just because you are a Harry/Ruth fan does not make you a complete nutter, dressing in blue wrap dresses all the time and going to bed wearing a "Harry loves Ruth t-shirt."

Speak for yourself, TeaLady! I didn't get "Harry Ruth" tatooed on my ass for nothing! That was painful!

LOL! Now that would be worth flying back to the States to see

(29-10-2011 07:41 AM)JHyde Wrote:  

(28-10-2011 07:17 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  I can see the read through now of episode 10.6, they just took the script from episode 4.7 and crossed Fiona out and wrote Ruth's name and crossed Adam's name out and put Harry's name there. What a fitting tribute to ten years of Spooks. Another miserable, same old, same old, ending.

Wow, I wouldn't go that far. 10.6 was a much better episode in all sorts of ways.

Sorry, can I just redact this previous comment (I think I got carried away with the bit between my teeth last night. Apologies.) I felt what happened to Ruth at the end was too similar to what happened to Fiona.

I didn't think the ending, with Harry at the wall and back in his office, was same old, same old. I actually like the last line Callum utters about "bad guys want to kill us" and the fact Harry only utters two words in the last ten minutes of the show, but features in all of them and that was "Harry Pearce."

[Gillymac]

(28-10-2011 07:17 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  I'm not quite sure what you mean by "to be rid of it" Gillymac. Do you mean the Harry/Ruth relationship? Do you mean the "thing" that kept many many people watching Spooks and helped attract a new generation of fans? Do you mean the relationship and on screen chemistry that kept millions of people glued to their tv sets (not 100 viewers, I beg to differ) and had the critics praising Peter and Nicola from the rafters?

This relationship helped Kudos. Fact. They used this relationship and it helped the series last as long as it did.

I wanted an alternative ending. I am not a unicorn fancier and many H/R fans are also not. I just get the feeling "we" are all being clubbed together like a single entity. I have previously stated my ideas for an alternative non fluffy ending and won't repete these. Just because you are a Harry/Ruth fan does not make you a complete nutter, dressing in blue wrap dresses all the time and going to bed wearing a "Harry loves Ruth t-shirt." I would not have bombarded Kudos with anything if there had been an alternative, happy/open/non Ruth death ending. And I certainly would not have asked for a "Terry and June" type spin off show.

And not for one moment, my dear lady, did I suggest that you would - as has been stated repeatedly on this forum, we all come into this from our own POV and fortunately, although we may never see entirely eye to eye on the outcomes we would have wished for the characters, we can have a thoughtful, well reasoned debate about it. Everything you say about H/R helping Kudos is true. Of course it is. They are television producers, and as such, their job is to grow their audience share as much as they can. With a "blokey" show like spooks, that means attracting more women, be that by engaging 'eye candy' actors for the younger demographic or developing a bittersweet, doomed romance for those of us with a more *ahem* mature outlook.

I suppose what I'm getting at when I said "be rid of it" is the sub-section of H/R fans who are fuelling the current unseemly hullabaloo, and of which TeaLady you most certainly are not a member. It was this sub-section I was referring to when I mentioned the figure 100 - personally, I think I flattered them with that, and I certainly didn't mean to. We are all spooks fans at the end of the day, it just angers me enormously that these few people are claiming to speak for us all - regardless of our own particular reasons for watching spooks.

If what we wanted, wished or aspired for our favourite fictional characters, was in anyway feasible or marketable, we would be television makers not television viewers.

Really, truly, what do they think they will actually achieve with their unpleasant campaign? They've now dragged Helen James Productions, who make the behind the scenes features, into the fray. Nice one. What if Kudos decide not to use this company in future now because of this furore? They've clearly been in contact with them about it. Real live people, with homes, families and the rest of the responsibilities that we all have, potentially out of work. Honestly - is it worth that? Because a television show we all loved has come to an end? If you feel you can justify it, go ahead, I'd be interested to read it.

My final thoughts on this matter are thus: Spooks is not and never was all about one particular group of fans (or sub-section of a larger group) - it was for all of us, and I for one am deeply saddened and hurt, that in a week where we should be celebrating 10 years of amazing, thrilling, heartstring tugging television, performed with consumate professionalism by some of the finest actors this country has ever produced, the only voices the programme makers, writers and (worst of all IMHO) the actors are hearing are those of anger, hatred and bile. You do not speak for me, that's for damn sure.

***Post edited with apologies 1/11/11 as deleted section apparently innacurate***