Series 9 Episode 7 discussion

[theeyeshaveit]

Series 8 is currently screening in Australia and I got a big surprise tonight.

I thought, because I had been absolutely gripped by the Lucas goings on in series 9 that I was enjoying the series, but tonight I discovered how little I have been enjoying it. I have been fascinated but I have hated it just the same.

Even with Sarah doing her first dastardly deed this week in S8, at least it was Sarah being Sarah and I loved watching all of it. Lucas, Jo and even Roz in a sneaky way, being softies and having a moral argument with Harry who had to take the tough decisions as usual. It was just a joy to watch, even a Lucas smile or two and a Harry and Ruth who seem to be as least as likely to get together as they do now.

After it though, I am left feeling more depressed about Lucas and the general mood of this series than ever, so tonight's pleasure was short lived. The whole of S9 seems to have been miserable and a complete downer in so many respects. Whether any character will get an ending that can change that feeling I don't know.

I have never watched Spooks to see which character comes to a sticky end next, or only for the nature of the plots, the characters have always been an important part. Even the S9 weekly stories have not been sufficiently above other series to make up for the miserable nature of the rest of it this series. There has been no relief from the cheerlessness of it all from the moment we attended Roz's funeral and found out about the HS until now, and I suspect it will continue until the end.

I guess I can't take unrelenting grimness.

[BravoNine]

Grimness wasn't my worry, but just the tragedy of what Lucas has become and all the years of lies that came with it.

Am I suppose to believe that his protective instincts of the team was all just an act? He came through for the team, he took bullets for the team, he protected them, made sure they came home okay, he risked everything to save Harry, and he ran back into that building to get Ros, it's just hard for me to swallow that it has all simply been an act, and I still refuse to believe it.

You don't become another person for 15 years and not have a part of that goodness remain, and I hope to God that the Lucas side of John comes out in the end and saves his team. The team lost Jo, Ben, Connie, and now Ros, Lucas has always been trying to hold the team together since Ros's departure, trying to do right by her, so I hope that side of Lucas is still in there fighting to come out.

The way I see it, the only one who can stop John at the heart is our Lucas, John may have said that Lucas North is dead, but I refuse to believe it, he's still in there, Lucas is still fighting, he's protected the team for so long, watching over them and making sure they're safe, and I have to believe that good loyal side of him won't let a monster like John harm the people he had given everything to protect.

Please Lucas, I know you're still in there, please fight for your team, fight your way back home! They need you! You've never let them down the past 15 years, please don't let them down now!

[binkie]

(02-11-2010 11:42 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  Somehow I think it's not worthwhile trying to come up with a lot of explanations - the writers wanted to give us something quite new and spectacular and that's what they did. Not caring about logic, consistency in character development, credibility and other minor issues. But so what, they've given us that fantastic, new, shocking development! It will make it impossible to enjoy watching series 7 and 8, but who cares! We all should be grateful! What's credibility compared to viewing figures! And the stupid audience will have forgotten about plausibility by the beginning of next season anyway. So hurray to the writers!

You are entirely correct, of course!

What is so frustrating about the whole affair is that, as much as I am wedded to the idea that Lucas-is-Lucas - and can create a suitably coherent and robust thematic justification for this - I am also able to acknowledge that there exists an equally solid and definsible logic, using precisely the same thematic arguments, to support the conclusion that John-is-'Lucas'. While this does, in its way, imply kudos(!) for the writers in having constructed such a suitably Spooks-esque piece of double-edged narrative, I find it difficult to be wholeheartedly impressed at the technical skill involved because I am so thoroughly aware that, either way, it is a retcon. I am not so much disappointed as annoyed at the apparent laziness of it all.

[femaleBertieWooster]

(06-11-2010 12:06 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  Lucas North is dead!

Seeing this line again makes me think that this was some kind of message to Harry, much like "what is your favorite opera" an episode or two back. He can't literally mean it because according to the story, they both know he's dead. We've been talking about "our Lucas" but I don't think that's what they're doing here.

This would fit in with the putting on a show for the Chinese theory that a few people put forth pages ago, which makes sense. I'm also thinking about the show they put on for the cameras on the rooftop in episode 1 (and I honestly still don't know what was going on there, but bought it anyway.)

HellsBells said that the address to Malcolm's house was in the painting. Can someone explain that because I completely missed it.

[t-quinn]

Well, I don't normally comment, I'm more 'see all say nothing', however I felt that following this amazing yet jaw dropping episode it was time lol.

I don't remember who said it, but whoever posted saying that we don't know that the flash back scenes where true - I agree.

I'm holding on to the fantasy that Lucas is working on a covert operation, for someone other than mi5, mi6 maybe? And that the part he has been playing this series is because if the 'real truth' came out it would be desvastating!

We must remember that the kudos team are a; very good a their writing, especially plot twists, and b; very clever at editing and making pre views look completely different to the actual plot.

[Apicius]

I just wanted to pick up on a few points made earlier in the thread.

Spooks is usually very good at integrating the ongoing plot line and the current operation, however the operation regarding the Mafia guy and the French assassin seemed to not really fit in, other than for linking with Dreery and demonstrating that Ruth seems to be having a bit of a break down. I think there is much more relevance to this op than it seems. Especially as the Chinese seemed to be talking to someone in French - the French Assassin...?

(03-11-2010 02:18 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  

(03-11-2010 12:54 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  I have some questions concerning 9.7.
1) At the beginning after Harry and Lucas get back from seeing Vaughn, Vaughn calls Lucas and the Chinese are listening in, do the Chinese then make a phone call and speak french ?

Yeah, they do. I *think* they are talking to the French assassin.

And while I am on the subject, did anyone catch the tatoo they kept zooming in on? If so, does anyone know the meaning? I tried to freeze on it a couple of times but can only get the text: patria (homeland) legio (legion) nostra (family?). Can anyone see the image? It just seems like it should be significant.

The tattoo says LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA which is from the French Foreign legion.

I think and hope that this seemingly minor plot may be shown to be more important. I agree with many that Lucas/John is linked with Albany significantly, possibly even being Albany. I see there are others who are thinking along the same lines...

(05-11-2010 11:09 AM)Silktie Wrote:  I think there is a greater link between the Russian mafia bloke plot and the main Lucas/Albany/Chinese plot than we realised. That French assassin that Ruth had the run-in with, was in London to kill the Mafia bloke - who was bringing in 50 million Euros laundered money. But we also know that when the Chinese heard Lucas tell Vaughn that he was having problems locating the Albany file, they called and told to a French person that there was a problem. Now, this creates two possibilities:
1. The Chinese were working on their own, planning to steal the laundered money to pay for the Albany file, using the French mercenary to kill Mafia Guy. Maybe French mercenary was also there for another job, namely to kill Vaughn, Lucas and anyone else who knows about China's plans re the Alabny file.
2. The Chinese and Russians are working together to get Albany, and the Russians knew about the mafia money shipment and decided to steal it with the help of the Chinese (and the French mercenary would do the dirty work), then neither government would have to come up with the money to pay for it.

I've read the ideas about the tattoos and links to William Blake and Albany, however even if he is Albany (without knowing it) how would he or the other Russian prisoners know this symbolism in order to tattoo it on him? Unless Albany is much bigger and the Russians are in on it somehow but I think this is unlikely and a bit of a red herring.
However one of the (many) things I can't get my head around is why Lucas/John seems to be trying to track down the Albany file still in Ep 8. Vaughn was the go between with the Chinese, who were wanting the file. If Vaughn is dead then why would Lucas/John still be wanting it - unless the Chinese had contacted him? They did make it sound as though they were grand chess masters controlling all of the pieces.
In Ep 6 the Russians and Chinese were shown to be working together. Could this still be the case? With Lucas/John's longstanding links with Russia, there are plenty of theories that could be drawn from this, especially focusing on his 8 year stint in the Russian prison. Thoughts of Tiresius come flooding back.

Anyway, think that's probably enough waffling for now!

---

Sorry, another point.

On re-watching the flashbacks they aren't necessarily alternatives. What I mean is that although the spoken accounts are different the actual clips can fit together nicely, with Vaughn's account just fleshing things out as opposed to contradicting the 1st clips. For example we don't see Vaughn shooting Lucas North, just Lucas/John kneeling next to the body and then in the 2nd set taking the passport.
However, I do agree that while Lucas/John is listening to Vaughn's account he does look genuinely surprised and shocked. I keep getting thoughts of a Borne type scenario.

[Kirayuki]

My take on why Lucas still wants Albany:

Series 9.8 Spoiler: show

Lucas is still trying to track down Albany to get the Chinese off his back. They really want it and they know that Vaughn was using Maya as leverage. They'd want Maya so that they'd get the file after Vaugh kicked the bucket and continue to use her a leverage. John is after it to keep Maya safe. Once it's done they can run off into the sunset. Very much doubt that'll happen though.

[Forever Secret]

(06-11-2010 08:25 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  My take on why Lucas still wants Albany:

Series 9.8 Spoiler: show

Lucas is still trying to track down Albany to get the Chinese off his back. They really want it and they know that Vaughn was using Maya as leverage. They'd want Maya so that they'd get the file after Vaugh kicked the bucket and continue to use her a leverage. John is after it to keep Maya safe. Once it's done they can run off into the sunset. Very much doubt that'll happen though.

Thats my take on it too, I can't think of another reason why Lucas would still want Albany if Vaughn is dead

[BoHenley]

Series 9.8 Spoiler: show

If you remember we've seen a photo of Lucas talking to a Chinese person, so the Chinese must make contact to get the Albany file.

And I'm not sure I believe any of the flashbacks.

[Apicius]

I had a vague memory of that photo but couldn't remember where it was from. Can you enlighten me please?