[spoilers] Lucas Discussion 2

[binkie]

(24-03-2011 02:40 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  Maybe Lucas finding out that Connie had lied would have made for a more satisfactory series 9.

Ooohh! Tensions a-go-go It would have been interesting to see someone other than Harry have to deal with the longterm fallout from the deception practiced by another regular character. (Although, in ridiculous retrospect, I suppose we can say Ros already did).

[HellsBells]

Something has been bothering me and I can't remember if we have already discussed it.

On the roof top in 9.8 with Harry and Lucas, Lucas says he can't go back to prison 'because he would die there'. Do you think he means physically die and if so does he think someone will kill him or that he would kill himself? Or does he mean emotionally die? For someone you had spent 8 years in a Russian prison without any idea of if/when he would be released, wouldn't prison in this country be easier, torture and solitary confinement are not part of British prison system.

[Byatil]

(29-03-2011 01:51 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  Something has been bothering me and I can't remember if we have already discussed it.

On the roof top in 9.8 with Harry and Lucas, Lucas says he can't go back to prison 'because he would die there'. Do you think he means physically die and if so does he think someone will kill him or that he would kill himself? Or does he mean emotionally die? For someone you had spent 8 years in a Russian prison without any idea of if/when he would be released, wouldn't prison in this country be easier, torture and solitary confinement are not part of British prison system.

I assumed he meant that he would literally die there (life imprisonment/suicide) as well as figuratively die (emotionally). When he was in Russia, he had "hope"; a reason to continue, and something to look forward to when he was released. If he was imprisoned in the UK, he would literally lose everything. His dignity and reputation would be permanently ruined, and he wouldn't have that same "hope" which had kept him alive in Russia.

In the end, it was easier for him to jump off a building rather than face up to a life completely void of hope or redemption. And to be honest, by the end of 9.8, Lucas-is-John really didn't seem to have anything to live for anyway.

[HellsBells]

Thanks for that Byatil.
Although Lucas didn't even hear what Harry was going to offer. And I did think that John would have done anything to survive but I guess it was Lucas who was talking on the roof.

[WhiteSwan]

(30-03-2011 01:49 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  Thanks for that Byatil.
Although Lucas didn't even hear what Harry was going to offer. And I did think that John would have done anything to survive but I guess it was Lucas who was talking on the roof.

I don't think it was Lucas talking on the roof, because Lucas - in spite of all his flaws and in spite of all the psychological damage caused by those 8 years in Russia - has always been honourable, courageous, intelligent and basically "good". That man on the roof was someone who had betrayed his country, killed innocent people without a calm, wasn't intelligent enough to properly deal with a blackmailer, put the blame for everything he had done on anybody but himself, and in the end didn't even have the courage to face the consequences of his crimes, because he was so full of self-pity.
But I agree with you when you say, John would have done anything to survive (in pleasant circumstances) - in Russia he would have done anything to survive and have a comfortable life, as he was a man without any values apart from self-interest. Which makes that whole story absolutely ridiculous to me. "John" wouldn't have been prepared to suffer! And wouldn't that have been a perfect opportunity for him to get everything he always wanted? He could easily have made a deal with the Russians - I give you whatever you want if only you make sure Maya and I will be living happily ever after.

[HellsBells]

The more I think of Lucas and John the less I understand it! Maybe I should sign up for a degree in psychology, perhaps then I might be able to understand what the writers were trying to portray. There are just too many inconsistencies. I soooo wish that Lucas was just killed like any of the previous spooks.

[BravoNine]

(31-03-2011 01:39 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  The more I think of Lucas and John the less I understand it! Maybe I should sign up for a degree in psychology, perhaps then I might be able to understand what the writers were trying to portray. There are just too many inconsistencies. I soooo wish that Lucas was just killed like any of the previous spooks.

I don't even think a degree in psychology is gonna help you in any way of understanding what the writers are trying to babble on about with John/Lucas.

Honestly, even the writers probably don't even know what they're doing anyways, one second they are trying to make it that John and Lucas are two completely separate minds, next second they are one person. You can never tell if Lucas/John is suppose to be a man who is suffering from multiple personality disorder or have some mental issue. They never bother to explain what is really going on with Lucas/John.

Seriously, how hard can it be to just say that Lucas/John is mentally sick and that he suffers from mental disorders, at least that would have made sense with the whole Lucas/John thing!

[xRuthx]

Have you guys ever read Hestia08's write up on her livejournal of 9.8? It was hilarious but it also brought up this problem ie that the writers couldn't decide if Lucas/John was a supervillain or a weak man, a phycotic killer or a sympathetic victim of circumstance, two personalities or one? No matter how much you try to make sense of this storyline you never ever will because it doesn't make sense. It never could.

The best I can do is seperate out Lucas from John and say they were two different "people" but even that has its difficulties in terms of seven and eight Lucas. I guess we could always take the attitude of the random blog poster who claimed that real Lucas was off in a black hole in series nine somewhere whilst the cypher John took over for him in nine. Lucas' storyline is never over because he is in an abyss somewhere of incomplete limbo waiting for the writers or someone to remember him. This works well if you have read Jasper Fforde and The Well of Lost Plots

Seriously though, there is absolutely no logical explanation that can fit the inconsistencies of the series nine Lucas writing. It's absolutely impossible.

[BravoNine]

(31-03-2011 10:14 PM)xRuthx Wrote:  The best I can do is seperate out Lucas from John and say they were two different "people" but even that has its difficulties in terms of seven and eight Lucas. I guess we could always take the attitude of the random blog poster who claimed that real Lucas was off in a black hole in series nine somewhere whilst the cypher John took over for him in nine. Lucas' storyline is never over because he is in an abyss somewhere of incomplete limbo waiting for the writers or someone to remember him. This works well if you have read Jasper Fforde and The Well of Lost Plots.

See, the way I can do to salvage the mess that is Series 9, is if in Series 10 they discover that the bad guys (Russians or Chinese or whatever) had actually been using mind-control or brain-washed Lucas into doing all that stuff, and actually he wasn't responsible as he was locked away in his own mind.

I would say that Russians or others brainwashed Lucas or planted some subconscious personality in him during his 8 year torture and then Vaughn was sent to release it and wreck havoc for MI5 and Harry's team, this was all some revenge plot against Harry and to decimate the team.

And then we can have the team find all this out and for Lucas to finally get the proper burial/tribute that he deserves because he was never responsible for what happened, he was used by the bad guys and had no control.

At least that would somehow salvage Series 9's mess and would make some sense of why Lucas and John are polar opposites.

[xRuthx]

^I have thought of that and it was the storyline I intially thought they were going for. If this does happen in series ten (but somehow from writing interviews I doubt it) I take most of my annoyance back. Even so, I would find that kind of storyline rather unbelievable (but still better than the one we have atm).