Series 9 Episode 7 discussion

[BravoNine]

Oh and one more thing that was curious, why didn't Harry check out who John Bateman was? I mean, surely John has a record somewhere, he did say that he had a passport and stuff, he couldn't have gone through university without some kind of paper trail or identification.

So when Lucas/John told Harry the name, why didn't he go find out more information?

[Aria]

Very enjoyable episode last night with RA giving one of his best performances. His interrogation scenes with PF were outstanding and Lucas/John had me believing he had been duped by the evil Vaughan. Iain Glen was also brilliant and showed what he could do with something substantial rather than the obligatory one or two scenes per episode where he messes with Lucas's head. He had me feeling rather sorry for him by the end and his line to John, that he was a "killer, who feel asleep and dreamed he was a hero" was excellent.

[Tea Lady]

(02-11-2010 11:54 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  Oh and one more thing that was curious, why didn't Harry check out who John Bateman was? I mean, surely John has a record somewhere, he did say that he had a passport and stuff, he couldn't have gone through university without some kind of paper trail or identification.

So when Lucas/John told Harry the name, why didn't he go find out more information?

Interesting point. John Bateman would seem to me to be a very common name. Very nondescript. I know this is moving into the speculation thread somewhat but what if that is the reason Lucas is using it? It being difficult for someone to trace.

If Lucas really was an evil killer as Vaughn revealed, why did Lucas spend all that time in prison in Russia? For a man of few scruples, even if he does have a duel personality, why didn't he just give the Russians what they wanted? If he killed Lucas North and showed no emotion about his death, why would you suddenly feel guilty and waste 8 years of your life locked in a cell?

I also have quite a problem believing that Lucas North would have disclosed his true intentions about joining MI5 to John Bateman who was just a mate who he worked with in a casino.

[A Cousin]

(02-11-2010 12:33 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  I also have quite a problem believing that Lucas North would have disclosed his true intentions about joining MI5 to John Bateman who was just a mate who he worked with in a casino.

That is why they were smoking that very badly rolled joint. People do and say really stupid things when they are stoned. That and they were the only Englishmen there - there was forced comraderie. At least that was my rationalization for why the real Lucas North told John about his plans for MI5.

I had to watch this once and then I turned around and watched it again and am still trying to process it all. The only way I can do so is to take a step back from it and find the big picture.

For me it came very close to "jumping the shark" as we say here is the US. The only thing keeping it from strapping on the water skis was the incredible acting from PF, RA and NW and the fact that I know that Spooks has to be indulgent every now and again to keep the characters moving forward - in whatever welcome or unwelcome direction that may be. They will get back to the business of the business again. By that I mean that Spooks usually does a better job of balancing the threat du jour with character development but this one was all character. The character stuff was fantastic this week. The threat du jour was extremely weak.

It seems our little troika of characters: Harry, Lucas and Ruth all have a lot of blood on their hands. Lucas and Ruth are both going off the edge with Harry in between desperately trying to pull them both back. I like how they are challenging what we thought we knew of both of these characters.

The moments that worked very well for me:

~ The parallel and symbolic action of Lucas and Ruth turning the picture of their past lives over.
~ The parallel of Lucas telling Harry that Lucas North is dead and Ruth telling Harry that, for all intents and purposes, she is so dead inside that she is fine and ready to go back to work.
~ Harry and Lucas' scene. PF went OTT a bit for me when Lucas told him his real name, but for the most part it was fantastic.
~ All of Ruth's scenes with Keith Deery. He was great.
~ The park scene with Lucas and Vaughan. Knife in the leg - *shudder*!

Now off the the character threads to see what everyone has to say there!

[Elphie]

I can't believe what they are doing to Lucas/John!!
I love Lucas. Not just because he's very handsome but also because he has such an aura about him. Loving and Kind. Dangerous and Angry. Don't turn him into a baddy!

When he was fessing up to Harry he did look adorable but you just knew he was lying to cover his own baddy butt still. Why Lucas Why???? Don't do this to us!!! We can't take much more!!!!

I think Maya should get out while she can before he destroys her too.
In the next episode, it looks like he turns into the terminator and tries to get himself out of trouble at all cost!!!

There better be a twist to the storyline, because they can't get rid of him. Who would take his place? We have no one strong enough to take Lucas' place.

I like the cookie jar idea though. Can I also guard it please??

[FATBOY]

OK check this out ...

Doesn't Deery's ex. wife look a bit like Maya?

Would like a second opinion please

If so, is someone trying to place someone in MI5 - if not Deery then Lucas - maybe the Chinese?

Off to the Rumours and Speculation thread I think ….

[lwhite53]

I had some trouble with this ep -- as A Cousin said, the usually impeccable integration between "the threat of the day" and the spooks' character development was sorely lacking, thus the ep dragged a little, imo. In fact, the French assassin/Mafia boss op seemed to be there solely so we could see the emotional devastation receiving Nico's pic had wrought for Ruth.

The parallels between Ruth and Lucas are striking -- both become emotionally unhinged after seeing pics of loved ones lost because of their jobs. Ruth's "What's the limit on grief?" pretty much sums up her life, at the moment.

I thought using Vaughn as Harry's contact was a stroke of genius -- poor Lucas just can't seem to escape the ever tightening noose!

I can't figure out the Lucas/Maya relationship -- he's apparently willing to destroy his life for her but we don't see any real love between them. She's a cipher -- there to move his story along but without any real history of her own, a two-dimensional character, at best. I find it very difficult to believe he's going to these lengths for her, as I don't see the proof of their supposed great love.

The Lucas/Harry story took a giant step forward in this ep. Finally, we get some idea of the terrible secret Lucas has been trying to protect (maybe) and even with that revelation, Harry is willing to give Lucas his weapon back and let him go out alone to find Vaughn. Is Harry just being loyal to a fault? or is there more to this story? I think the latter. I believe there are yet a couple of puzzle pieces to be uncovered about Lucas, a couple of twists that may show that instead of being the "ultimate betrayer" Lucas has been ultimately betrayed. I don't for a second believe that if Lucas were indeed the evil John we've been shown, he would have spent 8 years in a Russian prison continuing to be loyal to crown and country -- that person would have cut a deal and sold out everyone. And I think Harry believes that too: "You were foolish but you're invaluable to me."

And the Ruth/Harry relationship . . . god, what a mess! Ruth is still so overwhelmed by grief and guilt that nothing Harry does or says gets through to her. The only emotion she is truly able to tap into is anger and she gives in to her rage when she shoots the assassin over and over again, channeling all her hurt, fear, hate and self-loathing onto him. Her total loss of control doesn't purge her, though: . . . "I killed a man last night and I'm fine."

Outstanding acting in this ep by NW, PF, RA and IG. IG, in particular, finally got to show what a terrific actor he is. The "you're a killer . . . the dream is over now and the killer is awake" scene was absolutely phenomenal.

[Puppetmaster]

I think Ruth is frozen inside and just wants to lash out. She's afraid because she feels empty.
Will Kudos let Harry give her back some emotional stability. and bring back some of the old compassionate Ruth.

[Logsie]

(02-11-2010 03:48 PM)Puppetmaster Wrote:  I think Ruth is frozen inside and just wants to lash out. She's afraid because she feels empty.
Will Kudos let Harry give her back some emotional stability. and bring back some of the old compassionate Ruth.

Either Harry needs to give her some emotional stability or he seriously needs to give her some new cats!

[A Cousin]

(02-11-2010 04:35 PM)Logsie Wrote:  

(02-11-2010 03:48 PM)Puppetmaster Wrote:  I think Ruth is frozen inside and just wants to lash out. She's afraid because she feels empty.
Will Kudos let Harry give her back some emotional stability. and bring back some of the old compassionate Ruth.

Either Harry needs to give her some emotional stability or he seriously needs to give her some new cats!

hahaha! Eureka! Ruth hates Harry because he never gave her her cats back!

Joking aside, IMO, the only one that can give Ruth emotional stability is Ruth. I think that is what is being explored. One must find peace from within in order to be able to hold onto ones humanity in that job. Harry has found it. Lucas and Ruth are failing miserably at the moment.