Series 9 Episode 8 discussion

[BravoNine]

Another spy show I watch, Nikita, seems to have a quote that sums up the Lucas/John storyline quite well:

"We all wear masks. Everyone, every day. Sometimes we wear them so much, we forget who we really are. And sometimes, someone comes along and shows us who we really want to be. Who we should be."

John Bateman took Lucas North's identity, he wore that mask so much that he forgot who he was and became so deeply immersed into being Lucas North. And then Vaughn showed up and brought back Maya, and with Maya it showed who Lucas/John really wanted to be, that innocent young boy from university who fell in love and wanted to make a difference before all the darkness invaded his life.

Lucas/John's story is really rather tragic. Still a convoluted mess, but tragic nonetheless.

[Nitrus]

I can't help but feel that people on this thread are being unfair on the writers because they are more annoyed about the fact that Lucas is gone rather than how it was done.

You're all very angry about how Lucas has been "assassinated" by the writers, but surely the whole point of this storyline is that the Lucas you "fell in love with" wasn't actually Lucas at all, it WAS all a farce. So the fact that people don't understand why the writers did that to the character baffles me.

[Tea Lady]

(09-11-2010 05:14 PM)Beatriz Wrote:  I thought that too, how could Ruth possibly be awake so quicky? It felt a bit weird.

I have just read some fanfic, so this is not my idea, but it says the reason Ruth was awake of sorts, was that it was a saline drip. It wouldn't hurt her. I think this may be one of those things we never find out but I really struggle to think that Lucas would have killed Ruth, so maybe.

(09-11-2010 05:18 PM)NightOwl Wrote:  You aren't putting forward a reasonable argument or offering "evidence" about why the Lucas storyline/ending didn't "quite fit." You're simply offering up your subjective feelings and thoughts. That's fine, but that is not the same thing as presenting facts or evidence.

This is a forum and I am offering up my opinions based on what I have seen. I never said I had facts or evidence. In turn, you do not have any facts or evidence to say I am wrong, so this is what we do here, we discuss. There is nothing wrong with what I have said, just because you do not agree with it. I get that you don't agree. That is fine.

[BravoNine]

Well if you don't understand, then I doubt you'll ever will understand why many of us feel this way. The way I see it, if I can't trust who one character is, then I have no reason to feel invested at all. They might as well tell me that Harry is the big bad evil behind Nightingale or something. Would that have been okay with you?

I don't feel like I'm being unfair to the writers, they wrote a storyline with weak points and plot-holes, if they feel to need to just retcon 2 years of Lucas North being a good person and fighting for what's right, then what else can I trust them for? Which character will be next on the chopping block for some crazy hare-brained twist? Will Tariq become an axe murderer? Maybe Ruth is revealed to be a serial killer?

I have stated many times that I could care less that Lucas is gone or that RA is gone, actor and characters come and go on TV shows, I know that better than anyone with the amount of favorite characters I've lost on so many shows in the past few years. And none of those storylines have made me mad at the writers, none of them have been this far-fetched and crazy.

Heck, just under 6 months ago, one of my most favorite characters on a show called Brothers and Sisters died, I was distraught even though I knew the actor was leaving. But I didn't get mad at the writers, I didn't get annoyed, I understood the change and the storyline exit made sense and was true to who they wrote the character to be. I was okay. I was upset and still am saddened when I think about it, but I accepted it. Hell I even accepted 24's crazy Season 7 storyline of good guy Tony Almeida being a bad guy, then a good guy, then a bad guy pretending to be a good guy but really a bad guy. I even accepted that crazy character change because it made sense, the pieces and reasons were all laid out and I could understand. There were a few plot-holes as to how he returned from the dead, but the general storyline and the character change was tragic but I accepted it too because I could see the seeds being planted from earlier seasons.

My problem, they portrayed Lucas North as a man of morality, integrity, loyalty, and dedication, despite his obvious shades of gray and tendency to be a maverick, he always came through for the team, he cared about his team, he would do anything to protect them. Yet now 2 series later I'm suppose to believe all that character development was all for nothing? Oh just forget about the good guy Lucas because it was all just a stupid lie and haha we can change him into whoever we want!

I think myself and many fans have a right to be angry and pissed.

[Onion Terror]

(09-11-2010 05:14 PM)Beatriz Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 02:04 AM)tyme4t Wrote:  Well Well Well so that was 9.8! Mixed feelings....
Things I was a bit disappointed by:
No Malcolm / the lack of twists / the Chinese agents from earlier in series - where were they ? / Alec White character - ok I admit I was hoping that it was going to be Tom Quinn

I also thought Tom Quinn was going to make an appearance, haha naive I know...

Hey, glad I'm not alone! As soon as Harry told the Home Sec that he would be brining in a specialist to track down Lucas, for some reason I was convinced we'd see Tom again. Particularly given that a couple of 'older' characters have returned to the show of late.

[Nitrus]

(09-11-2010 05:46 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  My problem, they portrayed Lucas North as a man of morality, integrity, loyalty, and dedication, despite his obvious shades of gray and tendency to be a maverick, he always came through for the team, he cared about his team, he would do anything to protect them.

But if you take the view that that was never Lucas and it was John pretending to be moral and loyal etc then does it make sense? That's how I see it, there's no right or wrong opinion of course, it just makes sense to me that it was always John keeping up the pretense and then not keeping up the pretense rather than Lucas suddenly changing his character traits very rapidly without clear explanation.

[Forever Secret]

I do agree, All the Lucas character development and all for nothing, the man we watched and knew was someone totaly different, why develop a character to an extent and then change the direction so suddenly, if RA was still going to leave they could have written Lucas out of the show a different way Then again, maybe its so we are in the eyes as Lucas, convinced he's Lucas North when he's someone totaly different

I hope this makes sense but as an actual episode I don't think it was that bad, if this ep had been somewhere in the middle of the series, or a similiar story to it I would've enjoyed it more...as a finale episode it just didn't work, a finale is built up and built up and then goes out with a bang and this time feels like a bit of a letdown after watching it over it just seemed... not as good

[BravoNine]

(09-11-2010 05:50 PM)Nitrus Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 05:46 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  My problem, they portrayed Lucas North as a man of morality, integrity, loyalty, and dedication, despite his obvious shades of gray and tendency to be a maverick, he always came through for the team, he cared about his team, he would do anything to protect them.

But if you take the view that that was never Lucas and it was John pretending to be moral and loyal etc then does it make sense? That's how I see it, there's no right or wrong opinion of course, it just makes sense to me that it was always John keeping up the pretense and then not keeping up the pretense rather than Lucas suddenly changing his character traits very rapidly without clear explanation.

No, it doesn't make sense, because you can't just pretend to show loyalty or morality, there are simple things that you cannot fake. Who they portrayed John to be, this cold-blooded killer who lies and deceits, can never just turn all that off and be the most loyal dependable agent. You can always pretend, you can't change who you are inside.

Lucas risked his safety running around saving London when he could have easily ran off and left Ros and Connie. Lucas risked his sanity and safety to run off to Moscow to help Harry clear his name when he could have easily pretended to be captured and let Harry take the fall. He ran into that building trying to save Ros when he didn't have to. He was clearly upset over the young teen Dean's death when he didn't need to be. He fought against Oleg Dasharvain to came through for MI5 when he didn't have to be. And there was never any indication he betrayed MI5 in those 8 years in Russia either.

If Lucas was truly just John pretending to be good, then all those moments, all those shown loyalty would never be there. John wouldn't have cared.

And that is my issue.

[A Cousin]

(09-11-2010 05:42 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 05:14 PM)Beatriz Wrote:  I thought that too, how could Ruth possibly be awake so quicky? It felt a bit weird.

I have just read some fanfic, so this is not my idea, but it says the reason Ruth was awake of sorts, was that it was a saline drip. It wouldn't hurt her. I think this may be one of those things we never find out but I really struggle to think that Lucas would have killed Ruth, so maybe.

So he shot her up with something to knock her out and then put her on a saline drip? Would that keep her asleep? I thought I saw Harry disconnect the drip as soon as soon as he came in. My daughter gets knocked out regularly for MRIs and she starts to comes out of it within minutes of it being disconnected. So maybe whatever sedative Lucas had in the drip was a low enough dose to just keep her asleep but not kill her, thus supporting the idea, as with the bomb, that he had no intention of killing her at all and was only lying to get the desired result from Harry.

[molecatcher]

(09-11-2010 05:55 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 05:50 PM)Nitrus Wrote:  

(09-11-2010 05:46 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  My problem, they portrayed Lucas North as a man of morality, integrity, loyalty, and dedication, despite his obvious shades of gray and tendency to be a maverick, he always came through for the team, he cared about his team, he would do anything to protect them.

But if you take the view that that was never Lucas and it was John pretending to be moral and loyal etc then does it make sense? That's how I see it, there's no right or wrong opinion of course, it just makes sense to me that it was always John keeping up the pretense and then not keeping up the pretense rather than Lucas suddenly changing his character traits very rapidly without clear explanation.

No, it doesn't make sense, because you can't just pretend to show loyalty or morality, there are simple things that you cannot fake. Who they portrayed John to be, this cold-blooded killer who lies and deceits, can never just turn all that off and be the most loyal dependable agent. You can always pretend, you can't change who you are inside.

Lucas risked his safety running around saving London when he could have easily ran off and left Ros and Connie. Lucas risked his sanity and safety to run off to Moscow to help Harry clear his name when he could have easily pretended to be captured and let Harry take the fall. He ran into that building trying to save Ros when he didn't have to. He was clearly upset over the young teen Dean's death when he didn't need to be. He fought against Oleg Dasharvain to came through for MI5 when he didn't have to be. And there was never any indication he betrayed MI5 in those 8 years in Russia either.

If Lucas was truly just John pretending to be good, then all those moments, all those shown loyalty would never be there. John wouldn't have cared.

And that is my issue.

But in a previous post you got it so right, the fact that the John and Lucas personas were fighting it out ~ to quote you I know Lucas/John jumping off is rather cowardly because he couldn't take going back to prison now he had nothing to live for. But you can always think that he jumped because OUR Lucas is still in there fighting evil John, and that OUR Lucas knew that he had to end this before John hurts anymore people. Think of this as OUR Lucas's sacrifice one last time to save his team and the people who matters. A split personality is just that so you can't blame the actions of one on the other. Vaughn's chilling comment that John had gone to sleep and dreamed he was a hero, then the killer awoke sums up Lucas/John in one sentence.