Series 9 Episode 8 discussion

[BoHenley]

(12-11-2010 03:17 PM)Logsie Wrote:  I am looking forward with trepidation to series 10. As others have posted, Kudos have a habit of dispensing with their previous series' cliffhangers in the first episode so we may not get an in depth retrospective of Harry's career. However, if we do, I hope they shoot new material and tell us things we didn't know, using interesting guest actors rather than dishing up a montage of old footage in a lame attempt to save money. We don't want Spooks on the cheap. Either do it properly or not at all!

Anyway back to 9/8. I thought the dust had settled on John/Lucas's death but now I'm finding new straws to clutch at. Someone pointed out things to me about the rooftop scene which I hadn't noticed before. After we hear the scream and the car alarm there are clearly audible hurried footsteps and they don't sound distant like the other sounds drifting up from 26 storeys below. They sound close - very close. Also when Harry looks over the edge, he frowns, then looks to one side and then the other as if to say "where'd he go?" We don't know what Harry saw on the ground. I wonder if they have left things open so that John could turn up at a later date, or he could stay dead, depending on scripts and availability of RA.
I had already tried to conjure up a scenario where he could have survived this scene but all I could think of was that someone else crept onto that roof, possibly to take out Lucas in order to save Harry, and that L/J despatched him and threw him off the roof before making his escape. I couldn't see how he had the time though, because the other man would have to be dead or unconscious or else he'd scream all the way down. Then it dawned on me! Lucas was already on the roof, lying in wait for Harry, so there is no reason why he couldn't already have a convenient body stashed on the roof ready to chuck off. The body would be pretty messed up after a fall from that height, and L/J could have rearranged his face a bit before the drop; and nobody who knew him was on the ground, the rest of section D were still at London Bridge station. The mistake would show up at post-mortem, but by then John would be long gone.

One other thing. I'm not convinced Albany is a fake. I think the real one was in Harry's desk safe all the time and he switched it with the fake one in the church. The Chinese now believe they have a useless weapon which they will merely exploit for its deterrant value, but the British still have the real deal. Harry will have retrieved the real Albany file later and removed it to a safe location.

Logsie, I really hope you're right. To bring Lucas back after this (at a later stage, even for one episode) would be a HUGE TWIST, and worthy of Spooks. And let's face it, it's no more incredulous than the Lucas-is-John story we've been expected to swallow this season.

Re: the rooftop scene. I also thought it'd end with the sound of a gunshot which would've given a much better cliffhangar to S9, and given an "out" for both characters. I did notice those footsteps in close (there's no way Harry could hear footsteps from down in the street - car horns and screams, yes) - who else was up there, or was it Lucas running off and Harry looked the wrong way, squints at the body trying to see if it's Lucas? Still, I think with the "48 hours later" bit, they'd have to know whose body it was, UNLESS Harry & Co are covering it up. (another good twist) Clutching at straws, I know, but hey, it's just an idea.

[Katja]

(12-11-2010 03:17 PM)Logsie Wrote:  One other thing. I'm not convinced Albany is a fake. I think the real one was in Harry's desk safe all the time and he switched it with the fake one in the church. The Chinese now believe they have a useless weapon which they will merely exploit for its deterrant value, but the British still have the real deal. Harry will have retrieved the real Albany file later and removed it to a safe location.

The whole thing you've put together is very, very interesting and makes a lot of sense.

On a somewhat irrelevant note, I certainly hope you're right about Albany--I'm thinking of poor Malcolm packing up everything he owns in a matter of hours and traipsing across the countryside with his elderly mom for 3 days all for something utterly useless! Jeez!

[Gazelle]

(12-11-2010 08:36 PM)Gazelle Wrote:  

(12-11-2010 04:56 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  

(12-11-2010 03:50 PM)Silktie Wrote:  I'm increasingly curious about the alternative ending they filmed. I wonder if it maybe included a more sticky end for Harry and a less certain one for Lucas? The reason I'm thinking this is due to the reaction shots we got after Lucas jumped, and specifically Ruth's. She was really sobbing her heart out, and I'm not sure that she would react like that just over Lucas' death. However much she may have liked him, the guy kidnapped her and drugged her, in effect making her think he's killing her with whatever he was injecting her with. Yet only a few hours later she cries her eyes out over his death? A few tears for him, sure, but not like that.

My speculation is that the reactions were rather meant for the alternative ending they shot, where perhaps Lucas actually shoots Harry and then disappears, and we're left wondering whether Harry will survive till next year. Maybe they changed it once it became clear that RA would not be available to appear in one or two episodes of the new season.

Those lucky enough to see NW in her play in December should ask her about it - we'd all like to know.

If I was a betting person, I would say this was the other ending, or something very very similar. What did PF say in the Radio Times, "..the end of episode eight involves some blood - potentially on my costume." I wouldn't say there was near enough blood on his head to get on his shirt. No way. As for Lucas shooting Harry, maybe it was a fight. Harry came off worse not surprisingly. Harry was then in hospital recovering or at home recovering, when the HS phoned. Hence, we never saw it.

The other thing, was that Peter was seen filming at this venue in July and photo's were posted (the one with the fly away hair.) No one saw RA there. Also filming went on much longer than predicted this year. Wasn't that filming with Peter supposed to have been the last day? A re-shoot perhaps, done at the last minute?

Perhaps this is why the footage of Harry at the end was taken from the E1 balcony scene (ok, this isn't proven but seems pretty likely as others have pointed out) - I guess NW and the rest had other commitments and couldn't come back to film an extra scene...

Just re-watched S9 E8 and the end scene's definitely a re-run of the rootftop scene at the end of E1 - minus the conversation with Ruth of course. This must have been in response to Kudos' hands being tied, surely they wouldn't have planned this as the series finale? Also, is it just me who's baffled by the number of (rather nice) cars Lucas has at his disposal in this episode seeing as how he's on the run...?!

[BoHenley]

Going back to the inconsistencies in the rooftop scene with Harry's injury: I know they do several takes of each scene, but this is SO different, that it looks like parts were taken from the legendary "two endings" scenes, i.e. one ending with Harry not injured, the other with. Now I'm busting to know what the other ending was...

Earlier on this thread I wondered how Lucas suddenly acquired all this equipment (cars, medical equipment, computers and computer knowledge greater than Tariq), plus drive the getaway cars to a pickup point etc. All this was supposed to have happened in a few hours (!), and even allowing that he may have set some of it up earlier, it's basically ridiculous and the dumbest thing in the whole episode. If anyone's ever tried to hire/borrow ANYTHING, you know it takes bloody ages just to do even fake paperwork (unless he stole them) - and synchronise it all? Yeah right. I know it's fiction, but surely the writers don't think we're THAT stupid?

[femaleBertieWooster]

Why buy cars or fill out paperwork to rent if you can steal them? We watched Lucas appropriate many a car during this season and the last two.

[BravoNine]

(13-11-2010 04:47 AM)femaleBertieWooster Wrote:  Why buy cars or fill out paperwork to rent if you can steal them? We watched Lucas appropriate many a car during this season and the last two.

Oh yes, the sonic-car-opener!

I'm more worried that somehow one person was able to "takedown" Section D all on his own when this is suppose to be the group that is protecting the free world.........ummmmmm I'm not feeling so safe.......

[Naivety]

Perhaps Kudos will include the alternative ending in the DVD set that comes out in February 2011.

[BravoNine]

(13-11-2010 07:23 AM)Naivety Wrote:  Perhaps Kudos will include the alternative ending in the DVD set that comes out in February 2011.

Perhaps the alternative ending will show Harry and Lucas dancing on the roof and then hug and then kidnap Ruth and the three of them run off into the sunset? One can hope right? Mama, Papa, and Son.....

[Quill]

(13-11-2010 07:23 AM)Naivety Wrote:  Perhaps Kudos will include the alternative ending in the DVD set that comes out in February 2011.

Nice thought!

[harrbd]

Re the Albany file. I would be a bit concerned if anything that important was kept in Harry's safe (4 digit code?) or under a bit of carpet in a church. In real life wouldn't it be kept in a safe, inside another safe, in another safe, in a vault, in a very secure building under guard. Get my drift?

If the real one was in Harry's safe wouldn't he just put it in his case and take it to Lucas? (I think the gas mask and gas were in his safe !)

Harry didn't trust anyone enough to know where the real Albany file was before so why would he leave the real one in the church. Dimitri, Beth and Alec all knew it was there and Harry can't trust any of them yet.