Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

**JHyde** · 09-03-2011, 03:13 AM

I disagree completely that Harry was being unkind to Lucas with that line. The Lucas in front of him is a traitor and a liar so Harry's entitled to be pissed, quite frankly.

xRuthx · (This post was last modified: 09-03-2011 07:52 AM by xRuthx.)

^I get why he was pissed but it was still hypocritical to me seeings as Harry betrayed Lucas in the first place by leaving him in prison for eight years (or at least that's the impression I always got from Lucas in series seven about how he felt re himself and Harry). Actually maybe hypocritical is the wrong word, maybe I mean ironic. Harry tells 'Betrayal is a cancer, let it eat your soul, not mine" and Lucas has been feeling Harry's betrayal re prison even when he was still Lucas not Lucas the traitor. But then on the other hand, it is Harry's job to be harsh and to know that he can trust who he employs. I'm confusing myself. I think I will have to watch the scene again with both perspectives in mind.

**Silktie** · 09-03-2011, 10:01 AM

(09-03-2011 07:50 AM)xRuthx Wrote: ^I get why he was pissed but it was still hypocritical to me seeings as Harry betrayed Lucas in the first place by leaving him in prison for eight years (or at least that's the impression I always got from Lucas in series seven about how he felt re himself and Harry).

But that's just it, it was Lucas' impression that Harry did nothing to get him back. In fact, that was what Kachimov told Lucas to convince Lucas to betray his country. Kachimov is hardly going to tell Lucas that every effort is being made to get him back, is he? It would rather defeat his purpose. We also have Ros telling Lucas that Harry sweated blood to get him back. Do we then believe Ros lied to him?

It's not like Harry could just ask nicely and the Russians would give up their prize. He had to wait until he had something to force their hand with, and unfortunately it took eight years.

There is no evidence that Harry didn't make every effort. People just assume that because that is what Lucas believed. So in light of this, did Harry really betray Lucas? If not, then he is entitled to make that comment.

**Nitrus** · 09-03-2011, 12:36 PM

To be frank even if Harry did betray Lucas, it would be extremely unprofessional to jeopardise the security of the country because they're now "even". Harry knows that no matter what happened in the past he has a duty to the present and should remain vigilant and unforgiving in matters that can jeopardise national security.

**A Cousin** · 09-03-2011, 03:05 PM

Harry didn't betray Lucas with that statement, Harry gave Lucas a chance to redeem himself with that statement. To show Harry who he really is, as it were.

The prison argument is valid. From what I have been reading in this thread, the issue is more what happened after Lucas got home, e.g. Harry's perceived lack of supervisory support for a clearly damaged officer. Whatever side of the divide of this argument you are on, it cannot be denied that this is an ongoing theme for Harry with all of his officers. Harry has to walk a very fine line between motivating them and supporting them, between his duty to his officers and his duty to his country. Lucas presents a very extreme case unlike any officer before.

DogSoSmall · 09-03-2011, 05:52 PM

It's a very long time since I watched Series 7, so I don't feel that qualified to judge, but it sounds to me as though Silktie has explained things well. I can't quite see how anyone would think Harry somehow had the power to get Lucas released from a Russian prison but just couldn't be bothered. That's a completely ridiculous conclusion to draw. And how can anyone say Harry didn't support Lucas? He gave him his job back and then made him Section Chief. Huge trust on his part, especially if he was aware that Lucas held a grudge over Russia. Still completely unconvinced that Harry has ever betrayed Lucas. Quite the opposite. A lot of assumptions seem to be made about Harry by people who can't bear to think that Lucas/John could get into plenty of grief all on his own!

**A Cousin** · (This post was last modified: 09-03-2011 06:27 PM by A Cousin.)

(09-03-2011 05:52 PM)DogSoSmall Wrote: And how can anyone say Harry didn't support Lucas? He gave him his job back and then made him Section Chief. Huge trust on his part, especially if he was aware that Lucas held a grudge over Russia. Still completely unconvinced that Harry has ever betrayed Lucas. Quite the opposite.

I don't mean to speak for others in this thread. Just interpreting what I have read. Correct me if you must. The support is not lacking from an operational level but from a personal level. Now I am one in the camp that Harry is not Lucas' father nor his therapist. Harry's responsibility to his officers only extends so far as to assure that Lucas is doing his job properly. There are those who disagree with me and make a very strong case for the idea that Harry is a mentor and as supervisor, needs to be aware of the emotional state of his officers to keep his team in working order son the can protect their country properly. I am not trying to rabble rouse, just debate. Adam sent himself to Tring. Should Harry have said to Lucas two series ago, "You. Tring. NOW!" Possibly.

Maybe he did. I don't remember. It has been a long time for me too. FYI, the re-watch has started up again. We are working on the 6.1 & 6.2 two-parter right now. I would love it if everyone in this thread in particular joined us in the re-watch. I am personally looking forward to S7 and S8 for the very kind of discussions that are going on now in this thread.

HellsBells · 11-03-2011, 12:42 PM

I think the problem with Harry and Lucas was that the Lucas in series 7/8 was different to the Lucas in series 9. In 7/8 Lucas was desparately trying to gain Harry's trust despite what had happened in Russia. And Lucas appeared to be vulernable, although he still trusted Harry otherwise why did Lucas go back to Moscow in 8.7 for Harry considering the potential consequences if he was caught again in Russia.
But in Series 9 Lucas was different, stronger and colder. The theme was very much on Lucas as the betrayer, and Harry as the one who is being betrayed.

BoHenley · 11-03-2011, 09:05 PM

Good comments, HellsBells.

I'm just sad after watching the DVD extras, not that they weren't entertaining but because of one definitive statement towards the end. Oh well.

xRuthx · 20-03-2011, 11:36 AM

(11-03-2011 12:42 PM)HellsBells Wrote: I think the problem with Harry and Lucas was that the Lucas in series 7/8 was different to the Lucas in series 9. In 7/8 Lucas was desparately trying to gain Harry's trust despite what had happened in Russia. And Lucas appeared to be vulernable, although he still trusted Harry otherwise why did Lucas go back to Moscow in 8.7 for Harry considering the potential consequences if he was caught again in Russia.
But in Series 9 Lucas was different, stronger and colder. The theme was very much on Lucas as the betrayer, and Harry as the one who is being betrayed.

This times infinity. I think that's what I stuggle with most. I expected a pay off and it never happened. Also, I realise that this is an unpopular opinion but I am one of those people who would like to see Harry face some proper consequences for once and I thought that was what the Lucas storyline was about for seven and eight and then it wasn't. In retrospect I think the word I was looking for was less hypocritical (in the context of series nine) but more ironic (in light of Russia and prison).