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watchstrap · (This post was last modified: 06-11-2010 10:19 PM by watchstrap.)

I've been watching the show pretty much from the start and have sat with big box of tissues on more than one occasion. Yes, there are plot holes and general madness. I mean, who really thinks that the security of the nation is dependent on a handful of people. It's called Drama and you just have to suspend your disbelief and go along for the ride. Otherwise it would be called a documentary!

Anyway, it's a superb show and I get a bit peeved with the Johnny Come Latelys who just want to pick it all apart. It seems that just because their favourite actor secures Spooks as their next gig, they think they will give the show a look and then when the character development/exit doesn't go their way it's all wrong.

Yes, I agree that the love interests are tedious and wooden. That's part of the laugh. Maya played by someone from Footballers Wives and Strictly Come Dancing. What were you expecting, the acting skills of Judi Dench? But on the plus side we have the stirling work of RA, PF and NW to enjoy.

Something that's struck me this season is that for a change, we the audience have been in on the secret from the start (or have we?). I prefer this to the usual mad dash for the twist in the last 10 mins. Lot's of lame shows go down this road because it's easy for people to understand. I don't think S9 has been lazy writing, it's been great.

Apart from Tom, most of our heroes/heroines have had a typical Spooks Boys/Girls Own death. They have all been fantastically loyal and brave and then died a heroes death by bomb, bullet, boat trip down the Thames. Just for a change I would love to see someone exit as a broken man, showing just how f**ked up they are by it all. Wouldn't that be realistic writing?

Anyway, ranting over. The thing I was going to say was that in today's Daily Mail that I filtched a look at round the Mother-in-law's said that Episode 8 was different from all the other finales in that noth is left ambiguous, nothing at all! Bring on tomorrow night!

Got carried away there....Monday night!

nothingisasitseems · 06-11-2010, 10:32 PM

(06-11-2010 10:15 PM)watchstrap Wrote: Anyway, ranting over. The thing I was going to say was that in today's Daily Mail that I filtched a look at round the Mother-in-law's said that Episode 8 was different from all the other finales in that noth is left ambiguous, nothing at all! Bring on tomorrow night!
Got carried away there....Monday night!

I actually don't like the sound of that......as if they are tying everything up as it's the end!

Kirayuki · (This post was last modified: 06-11-2010 10:39 PM by Kirayuki.)

I know what you mean. I watched it from the beginning and caught up with the aired stuff. I started watching because of a certain actor but they quickly were over-taken as my favourite character by another. Funny thing is when my favourite character left the show i stopped watching for a while before deciding to put the DVD's back on when i heard she'd come back. Silly i know. (Found that out when i watched the rest of it. The shows still as good. Tongue

)
Despite the fact that it now does irritate me when people watch for a certain person and then stay with that person so much that they don't like it to the point of disbelief when the characters change. However I have been through it (slightly differently) so i do understand them somewhat. Once you get over the initial switch of your character though you get used to it more.

What we were saying about Maya isn't that we wanted 'Judi Dench' caliber acting, just something more in the character that gave us a noticable quality or reason that Lucas would betray his job for. (I did say i'd stop talking about this though so that's then end of that one. Tongue

)

I would also like to see a different exit again. I looked through the character exits the other week and found that we had 1 decommission, 1 exile, 1 retire, 1 fake death, 2 left without explanation, 1 went missing and then found to be dead, and everyone else died. Thats quite a few. Also most of the different exits were in the earlier seasons. Dodgy

Please, please, please writers can we have a different exit trick at some point? Possibly if someone leaves in series 10?
______________________________________________

Also, not to be funny (as in akward not funny haha) but that is the 'Daily Mail' we're refering to... Dodgy

watchstrap · 06-11-2010, 10:52 PM

Mmmm, maybe I was being harsh on Laila Rouss. I'm not sure how believable Maya can be with so limited screen time. Although looking back, Adam's wife Fiona wasn't in the show for that long, yet from the start they were so real. I think trying to squash it all into 8 eps is a bit of a challenge.

Back on topic....the suitcase. I am trying to do a back to back rewatch of all of S9 this weekend as husband is working away and only got through 1+2 last night. But a couple of things struck me. Firstly, Lucas' slightly bemused expression when he first bumped into Vaughn again on the way home. Didn't strike me that he really remembered who Vaughn was to start with. Also, that bloody suitcase! When Lucas opened it, it remindered me of one of those Memory Boxes that the terminally ill do for their loved ones to open in the future. Apart from the photos, why the roulette chips? Surely most people can remember what jobs they did in the past? Why did he need reminding?

binkie · (This post was last modified: 07-11-2010 12:19 AM by binkie.)

(06-11-2010 10:15 PM)watchstrap Wrote: I've been watching the show pretty much from the start and have sat with big box of tissues on more than one occasion. Yes, there are plot holes and general madness. I mean, who really thinks that the security of the nation is dependent on a handful of people. It's called Drama and you just have to suspend your disbelief and go along for the ride. Otherwise it would be called a documentary!

Anyway, it's a superb show and I get a bit peeved with the Johnny Come Latelys who just want to pick it all apart. It seems that just because their favourite actor secures Spooks as their next gig, they think they will give the show a look and then when the character development/exit doesn't go their way it's all wrong.

Yes, I agree that the love interests are tedious and wooden. That's part of the laugh. Maya played by someone from Footballers Wives and Strictly Come Dancing. What were you expecting, the acting skills of Judi Dench? But on the plus side we have the stirling work of RA, PF and NW to enjoy.

Something that's struck me this season is that for a change, we the audience have been in on the secret from the start (or have we?). I prefer this to the usual mad dash for the twist in the last 10 mins. Lot's of lame shows go down this road because it's easy for people to understand. I don't think S9 has been lazy writing, it's been great.

Apart from Tom, most of our heroes/heroines have had a typical Spooks Boys/Girls Own death. They have all been fantastically loyal and brave and then died a heroes death by bomb, bullet, boat trip down the Thames. Just for a change I would love to see someone exit as a broken man, showing just how f**ked up they are by it all. Wouldn't that be realistic writing?

Anyway, ranting over. The thing I was going to say was that in today's Daily Mail that I filtched a look at round the Mother-in-law's said that Episode 8 was different from all the other finales in that noth is left ambiguous, nothing at all! Bring on tomorrow night!
Got carried away there....Monday night!

It's a really interesting point you make about the 'heroic' death (although it's possibly a little harsh to suggest that anyone expressing alarm at the character of season 9 is necessarily a Johnny Come Lately with unreasonable expectations of consistency!).

One of the things that Spooks has done really well in relation to Lucas is to make the point, repeatedly and coherently, that there is a sense in which the Service would almost have preferred him to have died in prison. Rehabilitating and reintegrating someone as damaged as Lucas most surely is comes with all manner of risks and compromises. The show has illustrated a number of these: inability to acknowledge limitations or ask for help, inability to communicate intent, inability to judge risk away from the field, over-developed rationalisation of personal risk, not to mention his apparent rescue fetish! If Lucas had died in prison, he could have been noted as an heroic sacrifice and that would have been a tidy - if unfortunate - end of it.

If the conclusion of season 9 is that Lucas-is-John this only adds a further dimension of misery as, if he had died in prison, it would have been perceived as Lucas' heroic sacrifice, with the Service none the wiser as to his shoddy past. Being returned to England will only have ensured that whatever the nature of his demise, it will be that of a traitor. Somewhat bleakly, a miserable, abandoned, hopeless death would have been recorded as heroism.

Of course, if Lucas-is-Lucas, the idea that he could die an igominious death even after surviving prison has its own special misery. And now I've just made myself depressed Confused

Well done me!

femaleBertieWooster · 07-11-2010, 01:27 AM

(07-11-2010 12:18 AM)binkie Wrote: One of the things that Spooks has done really well in relation to Lucas is to make the point, repeatedly and coherently, that there is a sense in which the Service would almost have preferred him to have died in prison. Rehabilitating and reintegrating someone as damaged as Lucas most surely is comes with all manner of risks and compromises. The show has illustrated a number of these: inability to acknowledge limitations or ask for help, inability to communicate intent, inability to judge risk away from the field, over-developed rationalisation of personal risk, not to mention his apparent rescue fetish! If Lucas had died in prison, he could have been noted as an heroic sacrifice and that would have been a tidy - if unfortunate - end of it.

That's a really interesting take. I never saw that.

Regarding Maya, in my opinion the reason she works while Sarah did not is that she is also a suggestion. So, he can be all in love with her and she can just fax it in. Remember, Vaughn gave Maya to John. She is just a phantom love, a suggestion, (a trigger?)

And Watchstrap, was Lucas really bemused until Vaughn opened the suitcase? Yikes if true. I've been planning on giving the whole season another viewing in lead up to the finale. That is definitely something to watch for.

BravoNine · 07-11-2010, 07:52 AM

(06-11-2010 10:15 PM)watchstrap Wrote: Yes, there are plot holes and general madness. I mean, who really thinks that the security of the nation is dependent on a handful of people. It's called Drama and you just have to suspend your disbelief and go along for the ride. Otherwise it would be called a documentary!

Oh I've suspended A LOT of my disbelief for MANY shows that I watch, and I do it plenty for Spooks. And I honestly don't care as long as it doesn't have that much big impact on the storyline. It is fiction, so I take it. Heck, I didn't say anything when it was just Lucas and Ros saving the world in Series 8 because it wasn't really that central to the storylines and the characters acted like they always did. If I had that much issues, I would not be watching this show, I can suspend my disbelief when it's not that incredibly important to the storylines.

(06-11-2010 10:15 PM)watchstrap Wrote: Anyway, it's a superb show and I get a bit peeved with the Johnny Come Latelys who just want to pick it all apart. It seems that just because their favourite actor secures Spooks as their next gig, they think they will give the show a look and then when the character development/exit doesn't go their way it's all wrong.

I don't think it's fair to just lump everyone into one category. I didn't come onto this show to watch it because my favorite actor was in it, I came to watch it because I thought the characters and the storylines were exciting. Yes I like RA, yes I love Lucas, but it's not like I suddenly hate the show just because he's leaving. I've had my fair share of actors/characters leaving shows and I still watch those shows.

(06-11-2010 10:15 PM)watchstrap Wrote: Yes, I agree that the love interests are tedious and wooden. That's part of the laugh. Maya played by someone from Footballers Wives and Strictly Come Dancing. What were you expecting, the acting skills of Judi Dench? But on the plus side we have the stirling work of RA, PF and NW to enjoy.

Who said that anyone was expecting Judi Dench? My issue that Maya is supposedly the one most important central aspect of this whole storyline, it revolves around Maya, around the fact that Maya is such an amazing love interest that Lucas would risk EVERYTHING for her. Would it kill them to perhaps write a character with a bit more personality? I'm suppose to believe that she is the most important thing in Lucas's life yet I've seen blocks of wood with more personality.

I don't doubt that RA, PF, and NW are fabulous as they always are, but Maya is the weakest link who has A LOT riding on her shoulders yet she doesn't deliver, THAT is an issue for me.

(06-11-2010 10:15 PM)watchstrap Wrote: Something that's struck me this season is that for a change, we the audience have been in on the secret from the start (or have we?). I prefer this to the usual mad dash for the twist in the last 10 mins. Lot's of lame shows go down this road because it's easy for people to understand. I don't think S9 has been lazy writing, it's been great.

Yes this series has been very exciting, no one is doubting that, lots of heart-racing moments, and the actors certainly make the scripts even better. But there have definitely been glaring plot-holes in matters that are the very foundation of this whole storyline, THAT is why some people have a hard time swallowing what we are being told.

We're not trying to nitpick because we're angry that things didn't go our way. We're pointing out issues that are the building blocks of this storyline and how they are contradicting each other.

Like how John took Lucas's identity and joined MI5 so easily that no one ever noticed, yet it took Beth about 5 minutes to pull up a file with the real Lucas North's identity.

(06-11-2010 10:15 PM)watchstrap Wrote: Apart from Tom, most of our heroes/heroines have had a typical Spooks Boys/Girls Own death. They have all been fantastically loyal and brave and then died a heroes death by bomb, bullet, boat trip down the Thames. Just for a change I would love to see someone exit as a broken man, showing just how f**ked up they are by it all. Wouldn't that be realistic writing?

Not everyone has been brave or loyal, they've all made their mistakes and had their issues, and I'm not saying that Lucas exiting as a broken man is so horrible. It is realistic, and yes it would be great, but the issue that myself and many others have is HOW they are writing it.

There are plenty of ways this broken-man storyline can go down without insulting the intelligence of the viewers, without making Lucas look like a crazy psychopath, or without the viewers having to swallow that the last 2 series of Lucas North was all just an act.

---------------------

Bottom line is, the issues that myself and many others have with this storyline isn't that Lucas/RA is leaving or that Lucas can't be a broken man, the problem we have is that aspects of this storyline that a very important and central to how this storyline works is badly constructed and hard for us to swallow as the truth.

Maybe you can take it and suspend your disbelief, and that's cool. But just understand that many of us cannot because to us there are glaring mistakes being made and we just want an ending that is plausible not fanciful.

BoHenley · 07-11-2010, 08:49 AM

Thanks Binkie and Bravo. You've said it much better than I ever could.

FionaC · 07-11-2010, 11:34 AM

(06-11-2010 10:15 PM)watchstrap Wrote: The thing I was going to say was that in today's Daily Mail that I filtched a look at round the Mother-in-law's said that Episode 8 was different from all the other finales in that noth is left ambiguous, nothing at all! Bring on tomorrow night!
Got carried away there....Monday night!

I read that too. Sounds like we could be looking at a "non cliffhanger" ending which would make a change.

Apicius · 07-11-2010, 11:51 AM

Is there any possibility that they could be confusing people with the fact that there were two endings filmed (possibly due to the initial uncertainty regarding a Series 10 - so glad that's been cleared up)? By they I mean Kudos or the BBC. Probably unlikely but ? possible.